Radical_EgoCom
Democrats When They Want Your Vote:
•"Healthcare is a right!"
•"Climate change is real!"
•"We need to end all wars!"
Democrats when they have power:
•Block Medicare for All
•Expand fossil fuel subsidies
•Increase the Military budget
VOTING BLUE DOESN'T CHANGE A THING
Denny
@Radical_EgoCom The choice between bastards and even bigger bastards is a painful choice for me, but can be life or death for the poorer people in society who tend to be on the pointy end of every grim policy choice. I'm not happy about any UK party, but I can see who'd be worse for the worst-off.
I tend to think of it as "who do I most want to vote against?" and then vote for whoever is most likely to beat them.
SocialistStan
@moondog548 @Radical_EgoCom You do understand you're just choosing your master right?
Whoever you elect is not my president, I don't need a ruler.
moondog548
@Radical_EgoCom this message is neither timely nor productive.
voting blue gets us another election.
Meanwhile do the other shit and vote for or become) proper candidates in your local and state elections. Build a better democracy from the ground up.
AnthonyJK-Admin
Still amazed at liberals who simply cannot understand the difference between voting your principles and building a movement to change and replace an unequal and unjust system, and continuing to vote for one party of that failed system which has proven themselves to fail again and again even in the very acts of "harm reduction".
Sorry, but allowing creeping fascism in order to slow galloping fascism only increases the likelihood of fascism. Vote and build LEFT, not blue.
S Vermin Rose
@Radical_EgoCom Agree. But voting red most definitely will, and that's not a change that we can survive.
Radical_EgoCom
@Chimneyswift @benda @SocialistStan @condalmo @moondog548 I'm not advocating for any kind of accelerationism, but it is very clear that the reforms that leftist political parties enact make people far less likely to even want to abolish the state or capitalism, because they've been given a new faith in the system, and hope that the reformist will make it better. That is why many Anarchist say the leftist parties and the rightist parties are the same, not because they literally advocate for the same policies, but because they are a yin and yang to democratic capitalism, the institutions not being able to exist without both. The leftist parties give people hope in the system and calms down their revolutionary spirits, while the rightist parties, and sometimes even the leftist parties, engage in the full on exploitation ifnthe working class. The people get angry and want to revolt, and then the leftist parties eases their frustrations with more promises of reforms to the system to make them calm again, and the whole cycle repeats over again, possibly forever unless destroyed.
what the duck
@Radical_EgoCom @benda @SocialistStan @condalmo @moondog548 Counterpoint:
From an #anarchist POV, if voting doesn't matter, or even if it is a matter of evil vs lesser evil: There is still harm reduction.
The alternative, if you think it through, is a kind of leftist accelerationism. And to be clear, accelerationism is bad, full stop, because people do not move into next paradigm thinking in situations of literal, physical, existential threat - they move into zero sum thinking, which is precisely the opposite of a paradigm shift that anarchism looks to provide.
In order for people to be open to that next wave of engagement with reality, they need both the freedom to experiment and the obvious, unfixable shortcomings of the current system. Which is about the best that grinding, liberal poverty can provide.
In that way, voting actually fits within a utilitarian anarchist framework. Furthermore, it provides a sympathetic rhetorical space for engagement with liberals we seek to radicalize. "Of course! But..."
benda
@SocialistStan @condalmo @moondog548 @Radical_EgoCom and I think that's where we don't see eye to eye. that's the root of our disagreement. I used to feel the same way. but now I don't think it adds up. bc again, so many people aren't voting, but the system doesn't go away lol. cops aren't working less based on how many people don't participate. they're just taking the money and shoving it up the police unions ass and they don't see why they should stop bc nobody votes against it.
Radical_EgoCom
@benda @SocialistStan @condalmo @moondog548 You're misunderstanding the anarchist position on voting. Anarchist are not advocating that people only don't vote, but that in addition to not voting they create non-hierarchical Mutual Aid and self-defense organizations to take care of themselves without the aid of the government.
SocialistStan
@benda @condalmo @moondog548 @Radical_EgoCom On the contrary, 50% of people not participating in legitimizing an elite is the progress towards an anarchy. The goal is to upend the system, not strengthen it.
benda
@SocialistStan @condalmo @moondog548 @Radical_EgoCom absolutely, bc the party doesn't respond to the few actual leftists that participate. if all of us participated, hell if 70% of us participated, not just on general election Day but in every down ballot race and every midterm we would define the direction of the party. I'm not ignorant of the corruption in the party, especially on the federal level, but the left is also too disorganized to give it a try. when they do, they often times win.
and regardless, it's ignorant to say both parties are exactly the same. maybe on economic issues, sure. and maybe environmental too 🙃 again, I didn't say I like the fuckers. but like you said yourself, we're picking masters. okay, but... isn't that better than not picking?
(also, I'm glad you didn't mute me. I enjoy talking with you.)
benda
@SocialistStan @condalmo @moondog548 @Radical_EgoCom the 40-50% of the electorate that doesn't vote have a politics that is more in line with you and I than any of the "representatives" in office. that's why they don't vote, just like you. if you as a group demand to be heard, you will define the politics of the party. I know, I know, but you want anarchy not a new state. you're not a bunch of tankies, I understand. but that's progress towards your goal. if we start with a government that maybe holds police responsible for murdering, we can collectively breath a little easier and put our efforts elsewhere. I just don't understand why you would want to make the path towards your goal harder than it already is?
SocialistStan
@benda @condalmo @moondog548 @Radical_EgoCom This is happening under a DNC regime already.
benda
@SocialistStan @condalmo @moondog548 @Radical_EgoCom that's the point comrade, although I'm pretty sure you muted me months ago. in addition to your direct community organizing, you can make the smallest of efforts to change the legal framework that necessitates you having to fund raise to help people escape.
nobody here is defending the system. we all hate it. but it has real effects. effects that you, admittedly, have to deal with.
and even if you're up for the fight, there are plenty of persecuted individuals that don't know and your social network, and they don't have anyone else that'll help them escape. and escaping will only get harder as this spreads across the country.
SocialistStan
@condalmo @moondog548 @Radical_EgoCom TBH he's such an irrelevant empty suit not much apart from supporting StopCopCity, doing mutual aid organizing, and boosting fundraisers for trans people fleeing to safe states.
Condalmo.
@SocialistStan @moondog548 @Radical_EgoCom How have you been disobeying Biden?
SocialistStan
@moondog548 @Radical_EgoCom I'm not trying to convince you of anything, if you want a ruler you can have one, just don't expect people like me or OP to obey them.
moondog548
@SocialistStan @Radical_EgoCom I understand the notion, just not your purpose in this discussion.
SocialistStan
@moondog548 @Radical_EgoCom It makes perfect sense, I don't acknowledge the authority of any politician, I don't see how that's hard to grasp.
moondog548
@SocialistStan @Radical_EgoCom you said that my vote choses my master, but whoever that is is not your president. So ok perhaps it's not contradictory, but it doesn't make any sense at all. I'm gwtting your vibes clear as the naked sun, but not any coherent thoughts. At least, none with any logical connection to any particular course of action.
SocialistStan
@moondog548 @Radical_EgoCom Also, there's nothing contradictory in my comment.
moondog548
@SocialistStan @Radical_EgoCom What is the goal of this seemingly self-contradictory comment? Help me work with you with what it is *you* want to accomplish.
SocialistStan
@benda @redrozalia @moondog548 @Radical_EgoCom I think this
"I don't see something as miniscule as voting for Biden, as supporting Biden."
May actually be the root of our disagreement here, cause like, you're literally signing a legally binding piece of paper saying saying you support him and give him permission to be your president.
It may only be symbolic in effect since the electoral college actually decides, but you're still supporting him.
benda
@SocialistStan @redrozalia @moondog548 @Radical_EgoCom bc I don't see something as miniscule as voting for Biden, as supporting Biden. (I'm glad you're back). that's where we differ. I see organizing, every day, as much more of an afront to Biden than voting being supporting Biden when the only reasonable outcome of not doing so is ending up with someone much worse.
you organize and fight everyday against whoever holds that office, because you are ideologically opposed to that office. I'm right there with you.
but once every 2 years, you do your small part to make sure you'll be fighting someone that gives more money to pigs versus someone who will also give more money to pigs, and embolden the pigs with pardons, and embolden the most deranged elements of our society to act violently on the hate they're already programmed with.
you can't tell me those two situations are the same thing. I absolutely 100 fucking percent agree with you that they're both shitty situations but until organizing reaches a certain critical threshold, it's necessary bc of the difference in real consequences between the acting-progressive and the fascist.
benda
@redrozalia @SocialistStan @moondog548 @Radical_EgoCom
so I don't debate anything you just posted. so let's expand on this part:
"but you will quickly learn that the more of a threat you pose to capital, the more FASCISTIC will capital behave, no matter who was elected to defend it."
but doesn't that mean it's working then? I think we both believe that when capital pushes back, we're doing something right. the problem here was the party's president, despite his rhetoric and marketing, is on their side. so capital didn't even have to act that fascistic to get him to break the strike. he was glad to do it.
you consistently see the richest political players spending good money to suppress people's votes or better yet, convince them they don't even want to vote. you and I have a similar politics. don't you wonder why your position on non participation aligns more with richard uihlein's propaganda than mine?
SocialistStan
@benda @redrozalia @moondog548 @Radical_EgoCom "the party's president, despite his rhetoric and marketing, is on their side. so capital didn't even have to act that fascistic to get him to break the strike"
I don't see how that's a point in favor of voting for the DNC.
benda
@redrozalia @SocialistStan @moondog548 @Radical_EgoCom this God damn app crashed towards the end of a very long reply lol.
benda
@redrozalia @SocialistStan @moondog548 @Radical_EgoCom yes yes I know. can anyone explain to me why I'm being replied to with arguments that Biden is bad? I hate the old man more than anyone else here, okay? I'll be throwing a virtual party here, everyone invited, when the old man trips and breaks his fucking head open.
the debate is whether or not it makes sense to vote for the less fascistic of two options and then organize against that administration versus just sitting out of the electoral process completely.
Rozalia Sofia
@benda
@SocialistStan @moondog548 @Radical_EgoCom
well this is just the issue, though. fascism and liberalism arent like a quality of a particular person, like saying "Donald Trump is a Fascist and his opponent, Joseph Biden, is a Liberal".
rather, fascism and liberalism are ideologies used by the capitalist state, at different times and in different contexts. liberalism is what allows a relatively stable capitalist state to pacify workers demands with reforms, and benefits from supporting the illusion of "true democracy" to encourage workers to think of themselves as having a say in the state.
fascism, on the other hand, becomes dominant when workers are not content with reforms and are getting involved in revolutionary politics. the point of fascism is to defend capital from revolution; the fascist states of the 20th century all came out of countries with failed workers revolutions; and it was the revolutionary organizations and politically militant workers who were first targeted by these.
if you want to "organize against that [liberal] administration", i wont stop you. but you will quickly learn that the more of a threat you pose to capital, the more FASCISTIC will capital behave, no matter who was elected to defend it. biden, the most "labor-friendly" president in american history, broke the rail workers strike while citing a need for national unity in a time of war.
Rozalia Sofia
@benda
@SocialistStan @condalmo @moondog548 @Radical_EgoCom
they wouldnt see why they should stop even if lots of people vote against it. (whatever that would look like...) but in reality voting for biden is voting for the guy that said "we need to fund the police more and better" in 2020.
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