Conversation

Notices

1. Embed this notice
   :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 05:51:16 JST :blobcathug:
   It looks like mastodon.art's admin is once again on a rage trip, blocking instances without any good reason.
   
   I dont think that one should ban instances like mastodon.art for pushing ridiculous blocks but i guess the time is here to do something against it.
   
   How about creating a Website which warns Users from weird behaviors of Admins?
   • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
   • kaia repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 05:57:39 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • crafti
     @crafti good point, i was actually thinking of how a fair system could look like.
     Point is, a tagging system leads to pointing out instances that are obviously bad. Important cases would go under and thats why i dont like the idea of tagging instances. There are more than enough bad blocking lists around and i dont want to create one more
   • Embed this notice
     crafti (crafti@akkoma.0x68756773.moe)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 05:57:40 JST crafti

     in reply to
     @Jain I'd advocate for community-led taggings of instances with specifics and receipts, but curating anything that judges instances leaves you up for drama and harassment
   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 06:02:47 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • crafti
     @crafti i will think about it, that is by far better...
     what do you think about a fedi drama tracking website?
   • Embed this notice
     crafti (crafti@akkoma.0x68756773.moe)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 06:02:48 JST crafti

     in reply to
     @Jain my spin is that you gives overly specific tags to instances with receipts in order to be the most neutral/fair.
   • Embed this notice
     mia@void.rehab's status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 06:04:10 JST mia

     in reply to

     • crafti

     @Jain@blob.cat @crafti@akkoma.0x68756773.moe fedi dramaalert, amazing

     :blobcathug: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 06:13:25 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • crafti
     @crafti because i cant came up with a reasonable rule set so that everyone can participate.
     
     I want to minimize the authority upon deciding whats good and bad, people should decide themself.
     
     I dont want to create another blocklist, there are already way to much blocklists which are too much opinionated, for example thebad.space...
     
     The goal should be to find a way around that, so tracking and archiving drama is much more near to the idea
   • Embed this notice
     crafti (crafti@akkoma.0x68756773.moe)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 06:13:27 JST crafti

     in reply to
     @Jain honest question: why?
     
     is drama really that relevant or interesting? other than just to expose people?
   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 06:15:38 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • parallel unstable lean :OwOid:
     @getimiskon the idea would more be like a drama tracker, you might want to read this: https://blob.cat/notice/AY8EPbX8xS06IGThvk
   • Embed this notice
     parallel unstable lean :OwOid: (getimiskon@fedi.getimiskon.xyz)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 06:15:39 JST parallel unstable lean :OwOid:

     in reply to
     @Jain I don't think it's a good idea to do so. I expect that to go as well as fediblock list sites.
   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 06:17:47 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • crafti
     @crafti i dont have experience with tracking drama or kiwifarms like websites... im not sure about what you say.
     
     Main point is, if you have good ideas, please share them, im interested in a discussion about such stuff
   • Embed this notice
     crafti (crafti@akkoma.0x68756773.moe)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 06:17:48 JST crafti

     in reply to

     • crafti
     @Jain Drama websites are the most toxic thing you can put online because that's like kiwifarms-tier, well, this wouldn't be a forum ofc, but still. I see no value in this for admins.
   • Embed this notice
     crafti (crafti@akkoma.0x68756773.moe)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 06:18:24 JST crafti

     in reply to
     @Jain not everything is drama though, that's another problem.
     
     my idea behind tags is that they should descriptive enough to be objective and applicable to bad actors
     
     I'd intend to tag all kinds of instances
     :blobcathug: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 06:19:15 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • crafti
     @Jain @crafti just make a website about the single admin that is causing you problems, you don't have to make a website documenting everyone's problems.
   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 06:21:18 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • crafti
     @crafti ok, then lets try to came up with a few examples:
     tags that i would like are:
     - admin has double standards
     - admin has a lack of fediverse technology knowledge
     - blocklists seems opinionated
     
     tags that i dont think that should be there are:
     - racism
     - transphobia
     
     (for the context to others, those tags would create another usual blocklist which im trying to avoid)
   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 06:22:51 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • crafti
     @crafti i get that, im also in the opinion that one should forget old things since people can change
   • Embed this notice
     crafti (crafti@akkoma.0x68756773.moe)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 06:22:53 JST crafti

     in reply to
     @Jain I say that memorializing or discussing past drama is bad, and shouldn't be touched it possible.
   • Embed this notice
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 06:23:20 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • Sexy Moon
     • crafti
     @Moon @crafti @Jain Or just dumping a blog post / webpage about that instance.
     Sexy Moon likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 06:25:03 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • Sexy Moon
     • crafti
     @Moon @crafti tbh, i think you are not up to date... there are at least 5-6 instances which have bad admins and should be avoided. i can put up links to every situation
   • Embed this notice
     crafti (crafti@akkoma.0x68756773.moe)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 06:25:45 JST crafti

     in reply to
     @Jain I feel like those tags aren't any better than calling someone racist or transphobic, but really, I dunno, deciding something in council, providing enough proof, and working together in good faith is probably the best one can do.
     :blobcathug: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     ?? Blobcat Enjoyer (terryenglish@blob.cat)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 06:30:53 JST ?? Blobcat Enjoyer

     in reply to

     • parallel unstable lean :OwOid:
     @Jain There is also a Lemmy page dedicated to Fediverse drama. @getimiskon
     :blobcathug: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 06:35:48 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • ?? Blobcat Enjoyer
     @terryenglish that thing is an archived git repo... But i still like it because there are some ground rules that i think are very important
   • Embed this notice
     ?? Blobcat Enjoyer (terryenglish@blob.cat)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 06:35:49 JST ?? Blobcat Enjoyer

     in reply to
     @Jain Whatever happened to the Friendly Fediverse Covenant ? Is that still a thing?
   • Embed this notice
     ?? Blobcat Enjoyer (terryenglish@blob.cat)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 06:38:54 JST ?? Blobcat Enjoyer

     in reply to
     @Jain Whoops I got the name wrong: The Fediverse-Friendly Moderation Covenant.
     
     https://github.com/bildpunkt/fediverse-friendly-moderation-covenant
     :blobcathug: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 06:45:06 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • ?? Blobcat Enjoyer
     @terryenglish i think its good but it requires that other admins do take it seriously and fedi changed in the last 2-3 years to a place where i think it is not possible to get other admins to support that thing
   • Embed this notice
     ?? Blobcat Enjoyer (terryenglish@blob.cat)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 06:45:07 JST ?? Blobcat Enjoyer

     in reply to

     • ?? Blobcat Enjoyer
     @Jain Maybe we should promote this again instead of compiling drama?
   • Embed this notice
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 07:05:22 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • Sexy Moon
     • sim
     • crafti
     @sim @crafti @Jain @Moon Issue of mastodon.art isn't really non-transparency about the list, but more like: No communication whatsoever to avoid instance-wide blocks.
     
     Like mastodon.art should just stop pretending to be part of the fediverse because it's pretty much a solitary forum, they federate with almost no one and will drop instances on a whim.
   • Embed this notice
     sim@shitposter.club's status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 07:05:23 JST sim

     in reply to

     • Sexy Moon
     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • crafti
     @lanodan @crafti @Jain @Moon Honestly, I think that transparency about your own instance or user blocks is the best method. Then you can communicate closely with other admins and let them know if there is an instance/user that would concern them based on their rules and you'll have evidence on your own list for you/them to look at when the conversation comes up.
   • Embed this notice
     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 07:06:49 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • sim
     • crafti
     @lanodan @crafti @Jain @sim everybody tries to frame it as a problem with the consequences and not a problem with the perpetrator.
   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 07:20:43 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • Sexy Moon
     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • sim
     @sim @lanodan @Moon
     > I was trying to think about what the OP could do. I've never felt the need to have a blocklist. I think that word of mouth between admins is the best method when problems do happen and each admin can decide what is best for their instance.
     
     This thread was never about creating another blocklist, more like searching for a something to point out the issues of "good fedi" and warn users by not having the authority over deciding whats good and bad.
   • Embed this notice
     sim@shitposter.club's status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 07:20:44 JST sim

     in reply to

     • Sexy Moon
     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • crafti
     @lanodan @crafti @Jain @Moon It sounds like they aren't very transparent about the process or giving other instances a chance to respond before or after blocking.
     
     I'm not really familiar with what they do, I do think it is okay for them drop instances based on their own rules and whim. Or just to federate with a few instances. The main problem comes when they try to do more than this.
     
     I was trying to think about what the OP could do. I've never felt the need to have a blocklist. I think that word of mouth between admins is the best method when problems do happen and each admin can decide what is best for their instance.
   • Embed this notice
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 07:21:16 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • Sexy Moon
     • sim
     • crafti
     @sim @crafti @Jain @Moon They can do whatever, but they do have to be honest about what they're doing so people aren't getting screwed over.
     
     Specially as I don't think many people can review mastodon.art without effectively being a long-time fedi user/admin.
     It's not a blocklist, it's "Don't join Mastodon.art because: […]"
     :blobcathug: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     sim@shitposter.club's status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 07:30:04 JST sim

     in reply to

     • Sexy Moon
     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     @Jain @lanodan @Moon I've been here a long time and I've never known what a good response to blocklists and people abusing them would be. At the start, it gave me a lot of bad vibes because it reminded me of what used to happen on twitter but for users. It changed the fediverse vibe. So I mostly don't think about it and let people do what they do because I can't change that. Sometimes you have to let people get burned and then maybe welcome them or talk about what has happened. Letting them know they aren't alone. But since most instances will have blocked us by that point, there isn't a lot that can be done.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 07:30:46 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • sim
     @sim @Jain @lanodan I don't blame mastodon.art for blocking us but they lie about numerous people including friends of ours so I am not so inclined to be nice about them.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     :ihavenomouth: (inginsub@clubcyberia.co)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 07:34:26 JST :ihavenomouth:

     in reply to
     @Jain I am surprised there were instances they federated with
   • Embed this notice
     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 07:36:26 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • tusooa :Cat_girls_Emoji_004: 西风
     • sim
     • crafti
     @tusooa @crafti @Jain @lanodan @sim didn't she realize you're twenty
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     tusooa :Cat_girls_Emoji_004: 西风 (tusooa@kazv.moe)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 07:36:28 JST tusooa :Cat_girls_Emoji_004: 西风

     in reply to

     • Sexy Moon
     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • sim
     • crafti
     @lanodan @crafti @Jain @Moon @sim :shizukuCatGetDown: kazv.moe got banned by them cause... "loli"
     
     :shizukuCatEmotionalDamage: i guess it's my fault for being a little girl, huh.
   • Embed this notice
     sim@shitposter.club's status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 07:47:51 JST sim

     in reply to

     • Sexy Moon
     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     @Moon @Jain @lanodan I think that is where word of mouth succeeds. You can discuss with other people where relevant about those lies, about these patterns. Doesn't even have to be done publicly.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 07:52:41 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • Sexy Moon
     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • sim
     @sim @lanodan @Moon
     Well it looks like you are fine with your situation... I am not.
     
     There are countless situations which people try to frame blob.cat for something that it isnt. Its one thing to defend myself / blob.cat, i can handle that. Another thing is when it happens to people which I got to know and I like. Beside of that, there exists literally nothing to stop people from framing. I lost a bunch of connections due to admins who put their own personal opinion above their responsibility. I also know that way to many people dont realize what their instance admins actually does and how hard it is to choose a proper instance for a start.
     
     I think it is enough, admins should talk more and take responsibility for what they do. I want to create a solution which is fair so people can use it to point out issues and criticize situations. This would probably increase drama and would hopefully put a lot of pressure on admins which dont stick to fair values.
     
     So i see a need for such a thing and nobody who have a good solution... I would like to invite anyone to contribute or provide ideas for such a system. It is important to me that others can give their opinions.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Neko McCatface v2023 :verified::makemeneko: (roboneko@bae.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 08:01:56 JST Neko McCatface v2023 :verified::makemeneko:

     in reply to

     • crafti
     @Jain @crafti sounds similar to fediwiki https://fediverse.wiki/wiki/SJW
   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 08:01:56 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • Neko McCatface v2023 :verified::makemeneko:
     • crafti
     @roboneko @crafti nah, nothing on that website has sources...
   • Embed this notice
     crafti (crafti@akkoma.0x68756773.moe)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 08:05:20 JST crafti

     in reply to

     • Neko McCatface v2023 :verified::makemeneko:
     @Jain @roboneko and let's be honest that this wiki is a shitposting wiki rather than trying to be serious in any way :p
     :blobcathug: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 08:13:25 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • Poppy Farbird (Pen Name)
     @limepeep hmm... yes and no... point is, the mastodon.art admin is not the main problem. There are more than enough issues within admins so creating a better instance or guide/push the people is way to much work and doesnt fix other issues within the network.
     
     But i think one can combine this somewhat. Providing better alternatives would also help.
   • Embed this notice
     Poppy Farbird (Pen Name) (limepeep@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 08:13:27 JST Poppy Farbird (Pen Name)

     in reply to

     @Jain@blob.cat Another thing to suggest is to push artists away from that instance and towards better ones. Artists deserve to have their art seen, and banning the potential audience, and especially those who have done nothing wrong, is contrary to that goal.

   • Embed this notice
     sim@shitposter.club's status on Friday, 28-Jul-2023 08:39:04 JST sim

     in reply to

     • Sexy Moon
     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     @Jain @lanodan @Moon
     I don't know if being fine with it is the right word. Sometimes I would love nothing more than to go back to the days when there were only a few instances and the main drama was about whether the law allowed loli where an instance was based and how to best handle that. We didn't need a blocklist then.
     
     I understand where you are coming from with the framing. I felt it with the twitter user blocklist that I mentioned and it really sucked when that attitude came to the fediverse. You didn't even know if you could talk to someone on another instance while welcoming them. I had to live through the early days when this attitude was adopted through mastodon, the tools weren't great. It created a lot of bad vibes in general and it isn't how I would like my experience here. But that can't be undone now.
     
     I think the main thing which has helped me is that we are still here despite the framing, there are still other instances that federate with us and that may have had framing happen to them too. I don't think we are going to stop the framing, but we can decide whether we listen to it and who we communicate with on fedi. I do think it is worth having discussions with each other about these things and perhaps putting something down in writing to refer back to when situations happen. When people slander you, it does help to have other people have your back too. Word of mouth and closer communication with each other works best where possible, providing it doesn't have the same pressure/vibe that the blocklists have. I don't know if that is very helpful to you though.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: and :blobcathug: like this.