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Bread and Circuses (breadandcircuses@climatejustice.social)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:30 JST Bread and Circuses

EVs are so heavy they cause far more road damage than do old-style ICE cars.
"EVs cause twice the road damage of petrol vehicles, study reveals"
https://www.energylivenews.com/2023/06/27/evs-cause-twice-the-road-damage-of-petrol-vehicles-study-reveals/
Even just carrying EVs on trucks to the showroom is becoming a big problem, because they’re so freaking heavy.
"There’s a problem with transporting new vehicles across the country: They’re too heavy."
https://slate.com/business/2023/06/electric-vehicles-auto-haulers-weight-capacity-roads.html
And once you buy that new electric SUV and then drive it to work and leave it in a parking garage… uh-oh!
"Electric cars too heavy for old multi-storey car parks, engineers warn"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/05/electric-cars-too-heavy-old-multi-storey-car-parks/
My point here is *not* that EVs are worse than ICE cars, because they’re not. But they’re not much better either.
Replacing a billion old-style cars with a billion EVs won’t solve anything. The very best car is no car at all.
#Environment #Climate #ClimateChange #ClimateCrisis #ClimateEmergency #Degrowth #WarOnCars #BanCars
In conversation Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:30 JST from climatejustice.social permalink
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  MatthewToad43 (matthewtoad43@climatejustice.social)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:11 JST MatthewToad43
  in reply to
  @empiricism @CStamp @CWilbur @godofbiscuits @CelloMomOnCars @hembrow @breadandcircuses Individuals are only able to change their behaviour if they have power.
  Powerless individuals' behaviour is substantially dictated by those who have power over them.
  If public transport does not exist you cannot use it. If it is not accessible for your disability you cannot use it either. If you have no money you cannot buy a heat pump. And so on.
  System change! Behaviour is a *collective* problem not an individual one. And the collective acts primarily through influencing the state to change both the law and the provision of services.
  PS This is not an excuse for individuals behaving in an unethical way. We all have choices. But the choices we have are limited by our circumstances and marginalization. Behaviour change alone is insufficient to resolve the climate crisis.
  In conversation Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:11 JST permalink
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  Empiricism (empiricism@sustainability.masto.host)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:12 JST Empiricism
  in reply to
  Behaviour, AKA human activities, are causing eco degradation. Therefore, reducing those eco-degrading behaviours is "enough" to mitigate anthropogenic climate change.
  Different technologies can mean we do the same general activities, yet the technology is far less eco destructive.
  Swapping billions of CEVs or EVs for EV public transport is one practical example.
  Transport! with less eco harm.
  @matthewtoad43 @CStamp @CWilbur @godofbiscuits @CelloMomOnCars @hembrow @breadandcircuses
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:12 JST permalink
  
  pettter repeated this.
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  MatthewToad43 (matthewtoad43@climatejustice.social)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:13 JST MatthewToad43
  in reply to
  @empiricism @CStamp @CWilbur @godofbiscuits @CelloMomOnCars @hembrow @breadandcircuses Are there?
  Behaviour change is important. But it's not enough. Inappropriate technology is deeply embedded across our entire society. And we can't feed everyone, provide medical needs etc without some sort of technology.
  System change fast. That's always been the only option, certainly for the last 10 years or so.
  Individuals, especially less privileged individuals, cannot choose to live sustainably. They can make some impact with their choices, but those choices are often limited by their means. The whole system needs to change and it needs to change fast.
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:13 JST permalink
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  Empiricism (empiricism@sustainability.masto.host)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:14 JST Empiricism
  in reply to
  The key point is that there are ways to live ecologically sustainably, but 99.9..% of people in industrialised countries are doing the exact opposite (no blame implied, that's the unsustainable system people have been born into. OK, at least blame the corrupt fuel industries & their crony sociopolitical self protection rackets)
  It's those ecologically degrading activities that will change. Ready or not
  @CStamp @CWilbur @matthewtoad43 @godofbiscuits @CelloMomOnCars @hembrow @breadandcircuses
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:14 JST permalink
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  RealGravitas -Citizen Saboteur (cwilbur@sfba.social)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:15 JST RealGravitas -Citizen Saboteur
  in reply to
  @CStamp @matthewtoad43 @empiricism @godofbiscuits @CelloMomOnCars @hembrow @breadandcircuses Yes, it would. But I think the time for “gradual” is in the rear view mirror. We’re already committed to what is coming. Once sea level rise “mobilizes” 10-20 percent of the population it’s all over. A good 80 percent of petroleum distillers will be under water.
  We gotta stop now.
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:15 JST permalink
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  Carolyn (cstamp@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:15 JST Carolyn
  in reply to
  @CWilbur @matthewtoad43 @empiricism @godofbiscuits @CelloMomOnCars @hembrow @breadandcircuses Rioting in the streets because people are jobless, homeless, can't afford any food they can still afford to buy because of rich people creating an artificial inflation won't help anyone.
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:15 JST permalink
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  RealGravitas -Citizen Saboteur (cwilbur@sfba.social)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:16 JST RealGravitas -Citizen Saboteur
  in reply to
  @matthewtoad43 @empiricism @godofbiscuits @CelloMomOnCars @hembrow @breadandcircuses The best thing that could happen right now is for petroleum/coal to become suddenly and irreversibly unobtainable. We would be forced into reliance on natural electricity production, ethanol, and animal power. It wouldn’t support 10 billion but it would support 100 million.
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:16 JST permalink
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  Carolyn (cstamp@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:16 JST Carolyn
  in reply to
  @CWilbur @matthewtoad43 @empiricism @godofbiscuits @CelloMomOnCars @hembrow @breadandcircuses Suddenly would cause devestation. Most people & communities can't afford to spin on a dime.
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:16 JST permalink
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  MatthewToad43 (matthewtoad43@climatejustice.social)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:17 JST MatthewToad43
  in reply to
  @empiricism @godofbiscuits @CWilbur @CelloMomOnCars @hembrow @breadandcircuses Sure, but the question is whether we're one of the species that manages to reach equilibrium and slowly decline to fit the available niche ... or one of the species that overstretches the ecosystem it depends on and is wiped out.
  Much more likely the latter at this point.
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:17 JST permalink
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  Empiricism (empiricism@sustainability.masto.host)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:18 JST Empiricism
  in reply to
  @matthewtoad43
  The "writing is on the wall". The effects of hundreds of years of human activities that have damaged ecosystems, e.g., over hunting, industrial farming, pollution, now means human cultures are on the brink of a forced change.
  The time for choice has been squandered.
  But, all species are regulated by ecological limiting factors. It's only human hubris that many people believe that homo sapiens are different
  @godofbiscuits @CWilbur @CelloMomOnCars @hembrow @breadandcircuses
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:18 JST permalink
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  MatthewToad43 (matthewtoad43@climatejustice.social)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:20 JST MatthewToad43
  in reply to
  @empiricism @godofbiscuits @CWilbur @CelloMomOnCars @hembrow @breadandcircuses Agreed. But it requires major changes to both behaviour and infrastructure. As such, it will take time and has a significant ecological footprint.
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:20 JST permalink
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  Empiricism (empiricism@sustainability.masto.host)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:21 JST Empiricism
  in reply to
  @matthewtoad43
  Generally, we have to envision what is an *ecologically* sustainable transport system. Trying to sustain a transport system that hasn't been constructed with the intention of sustaining ecological systems, is analogues to moving the deck chairs on the titanic.
  We have to change course.
  That means generally considering what is practically achievable, not the "pipe dreams" of the ecologically illiterate masses.
  @godofbiscuits @CWilbur @CelloMomOnCars @hembrow @breadandcircuses
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:21 JST permalink
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  Jeffy 🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍🌈🇺🇦 ❤️🇱🇺 (godofbiscuits@sfba.social)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:22 JST Jeffy 🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍🌈🇺🇦 ❤️🇱🇺
  in reply to
  @CWilbur @CelloMomOnCars @hembrow @breadandcircuses in a social climate where saying your preferred pronouns is taken as an affront to someone else’s very existence, and when the idea of the “15 minute city” was reacted to as a “communist prison plan”, I don’t think starting with “dump your car and ride a bike on the stroads is going to get much traction. 🤡😃
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:22 JST permalink
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  MatthewToad43 (matthewtoad43@climatejustice.social)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:22 JST MatthewToad43
  in reply to
  @godofbiscuits @CWilbur @CelloMomOnCars @hembrow @breadandcircuses Bikes don't work because:
  1) There aren't enough bikes, so the traffic isn't used to them,
  2) There aren't enough bike lanes, and especially segregated bike lanes,
  3) Because of dysfunctional housing policy and/or urban sprawl, only well off single people live close enough to their workplace to cycle there.
  All of these problems are solvable, but they're not easy to solve. They require both political fights and construction work.
  Also, plenty of people need a car/van because they need to carry a wheelchair or equipment for work etc.
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:22 JST permalink
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  RealGravitas -Citizen Saboteur (cwilbur@sfba.social)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:23 JST RealGravitas -Citizen Saboteur
  in reply to
  @godofbiscuits @CelloMomOnCars @hembrow @breadandcircuses I think the goal here is a personal transportation vehicle that weighs 12 lbs and runs primarily on leg power. 😬
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:23 JST permalink
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  CelloMom On Cars (cellomomoncars@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:24 JST CelloMom On Cars
  in reply to
  - David Hembrow
  - RealGravitas -Citizen Saboteur
  @CWilbur @hembrow @breadandcircuses
  Nope.
  Small, cute, efficient cars are not sold in the United States. Because the EPA fuel efficiency requirements are not as strict as those in Europe. It's really that simple.
  They will tell you "Americans WANT large cars."
  No.
  Americans are *taught* to want large cars through persistent PR and ads. And dealers not having the small models on their lots.
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:24 JST permalink
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  Jeffy 🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍🌈🇺🇦 ❤️🇱🇺 (godofbiscuits@sfba.social)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:24 JST Jeffy 🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍🌈🇺🇦 ❤️🇱🇺
  in reply to
  @CelloMomOnCars @CWilbur @hembrow @breadandcircuses it’s not really that simple. American safety requirements are higher, or at least the standards end up requiring bulkier features.
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:24 JST permalink
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  RealGravitas -Citizen Saboteur (cwilbur@sfba.social)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:25 JST RealGravitas -Citizen Saboteur
  in reply to
  - David Hembrow
  - CelloMom On Cars
  @hembrow @CelloMomOnCars @breadandcircuses Are they marketed here in the usa?
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:25 JST permalink
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  David Hembrow (hembrow@todon.eu)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:26 JST David Hembrow
  in reply to
  - CelloMom On Cars
  @CelloMomOnCars @breadandcircuses And then you have relatively efficient e-cars like the Citroen Ami. It weighs just 485 kg and has a far smaller battery and far smaller energy consumption than most e-cars. It has a range and load capacity which are far more than adequate to cover almost all drivers' daily use, but the styling and 'power' are perhaps not adequate for the average driver's ego.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_Ami_%28electric_vehicle%29
  In conversation Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:26 JST permalink
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  1. Citroen Ami electric car.
    https://todon.eu/system/media_attachments/files/110/678/822/859/693/739/original/ec43c6e81ffbf920.jpg
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    Citroën Ami (electric vehicle)
    
    The Citroën Ami is a two-passenger electric quadricycle marketed by the French manufacturer Citroën, produced from 2020 and marketed from June 2020. The vehicle has been developed by Capgemini as a turnkey program.It was announced in 2019 as the concept car Ami One. It is named after the original Citroën Ami, which was marketed from 1961 to 1978. Overview The Citroën Ami was unveiled on 27 February 2020 at Paris La Défense Arena and marketed from June 2020 in a unique "Ami Blue" body color (blue-gray) customizable with stickers. To reduce its price, it is produced in Morocco in the PSA factory in Kenitra. It is a light motor quadricycle which can be driven in France without a license by people born before 1988 or by those older than 14 who have an AM license (EEA name)–formerly Road Safety Certificate (BSR) (national name). As a quadricycle it is limited to 45 km/h (28 mph). The Ami can be used for carsharing...
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  CelloMom On Cars (cellomomoncars@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:27 JST CelloMom On Cars
  in reply to
  
  @breadandcircuses
  But let's do an apples to apples comparion: e-apples!
  e-SUVs:
  2210 kg - VW ID4
  2450 kg - Tesla X
  2630 kg - Audi Q8 e-tron
  e-trucks:
  3130 kg - Ford Lightning
  3240 kg - Rivian
  e-cars:
  1475 kg - Honda Fit EV
  1570 kg - VW e-Golf
  WHY are e-SUVs being pushed on Americans? Bigger profits, that's why. #FollowTheMoney.
  We need fleet efficiency mandates on EVs as we have on ICE fleets!
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:27 JST permalink
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  CelloMom On Cars (cellomomoncars@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:29 JST CelloMom On Cars
  in reply to
  
  @breadandcircuses
  That's some sweeping statements there.
  Let's look at some weight numbers:
  1200 kg - Honda Fit
  1475 kg - Honda Fit EV
  1360 kg - VW Golf
  1570 kg - VW e-Golf
  Up to 2430 kg - Jeep Grand Cherokee
  2170 kg - Ram Tradesman
  Up to 2600 kg - Ford 150
  Up to 2720 kg - Chevy Suburban
  The weight problem is not with #EVs: it's with "cars" that are barely distinguishable from Sherman tanks, for size, weight, and risk to pedestrians.
  
  In conversation Wednesday, 12-Jul-2023 01:34:29 JST permalink

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