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  1. Embed this notice
    Carey Lening :blobcatverified: (privacat@dataprotection.social)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:27:26 JST Carey Lening :blobcatverified: Carey Lening :blobcatverified:
    • ploum
    • Dan Gillmor

    So after wading into the debate yesterday based on an article written by @ploum (and posted by @dangillmor), and the larger #fedipact controversy, I decided to share a slightly more coherent version of my thoughts. I still think unnecessary #gatekeeping and preemptive #bans suck and will cause a helluva lot more damage to the protocol than Meta likely will, but as always, hope others who differ in their thoughts will engage in some healthy debate, and not just resort to calling me a troll for having a different opinion than them.

    https://careylening.substack.com/p/the-fediverse-metapocalypse-and-preemptive

    In conversation Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:27:26 JST from dataprotection.social permalink

    Attachments


    1. https://dataprotection.social/system/media_attachments/files/110/617/629/127/415/212/original/ae26f6059f3fe04e.png
    2. Domain not in remote thumbnail source whitelist: substackcdn.com
      The Fediverse, Metapocalypse & Preemptive Bans
      from Carey Lening
      Meta sucks, but gatekeeping really grinds my gears.
    • Embed this notice
      silverwizard (silverwizard@convenient.email)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:27:25 JST silverwizard silverwizard
      in reply to
      • ploum
      • Dan Gillmor
      @privacat @ploum @dangillmor I have a serious question. It seems like the answer is no, so I am very curious.

      Have you ever heard of Facebook before? They have a pretty serious track record and have been pretty important, and showing up to this debate having never heard of them and thinking they are a brand new startup is very hurtful to a lot of people.
      In conversation Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:27:25 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦 (rysiek@mstdn.social)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:04 JST Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦 Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
      in reply to
      • Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:
      • ploum

      @ploum if I don't let any random person in during my house party, is that "gatekeeping"? Or is this just being a responsible host to those who attend?

      If I hear that somebody is organizing a bunch of buses of party-goers to come to the neighborhood during my house party, is putting up a sign "this is an invite-only house party, sorry" also "gatekeeping"?

      @privacat @onepict

      In conversation Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:04 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦 (rysiek@mstdn.social)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:05 JST Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦 Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
      in reply to
      • Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:
      • ploum

      @ploum also, these fedi spaces are not public infrastructure. They are bigger and smaller communities that have some common values (even if they can't clearly describe them).

      Meta is showing up to a house party with a few busloads of people. Some might be great folk. Some might be terrible. We know what Meta's moderation track record is…

      How can anyone be surprised that the people running a small house party are not keen on letting a few buses of people them in?

      @privacat @onepict

      In conversation Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:05 JST permalink
      pettter repeated this.
    • Embed this notice
      ploum (ploum@mamot.fr)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:06 JST ploum ploum
      in reply to
      • Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:

      @privacat @onepict : we should fight abusive corporations. Yes. We should fight too big corporations. Yes. This is not a generalization, it is a widely documented problem studied by academia. It’s called "monopolies". You can read more about it from David Dayen or Cory Doctorow.

      Is Meta doing more bad than good? I find it hard to not answer "yes". Is meta a systemic problem that should be fought. For most scholars, the answer is yes.

      Those are the basic premises on which we seems to disagree

      In conversation Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:06 JST permalink

      Attachments


    • Embed this notice
      ploum (ploum@mamot.fr)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:08 JST ploum ploum
      in reply to
      • Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:

      @privacat @onepict : that’s the very point why I use an #ungoogled phone, why I’m trying to be part of the #permacomputing community, why I’m arguing for #digitalminimalism, why I’m trying to shop as local as I can and to support small creators/local companies.

      Your argument is a bit like the naive: "You feel the world is bad yet you live in the world, duh!"

      Yet you argue than when we manage to create a small space without #Meta, we should welcome their invasion.

      Do you see the contradiction?

      In conversation Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:08 JST permalink

      Attachments


    • Embed this notice
      Carey Lening :blobcatverified: (privacat@dataprotection.social)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:08 JST Carey Lening :blobcatverified: Carey Lening :blobcatverified:
      in reply to
      • Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:
      • ploum

      @ploum @onepict When I see generalizations like "We should fight corporations" or "We should be honest and ensure people join the Fediverse because they share some of the values behind it" uncritically mentioned without any nuance, I respond with the same lack-of-nuance generalizations.

      Asserting that it's all bad, or that only the right people should join (those that share 'the values behind' the Metaverse' (without any articulation about what those might be!) isn't any more helpful.

      In conversation Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:08 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Carey Lening :blobcatverified: (privacat@dataprotection.social)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:09 JST Carey Lening :blobcatverified: Carey Lening :blobcatverified:
      in reply to
      • Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:
      • ploum

      @ploum @onepict I mean, expand that to logical conclusions: What phone do you use? Was it created by a corporation? What brand of computer do you own? What car do you drive or bike do you own? What food do you buy, what news do you read ... I could go on.

      If they're all soulless robots, why aren't you out there living off the land, instead of online? Why support any of them if they're all entities that "nobody control(s) anymore" ?

      In conversation Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:09 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      ploum (ploum@mamot.fr)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:11 JST ploum ploum
      in reply to
      • Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:

      @privacat @onepict :

      "Meta isn't a monolith anymore; it's a messy, fragmented clown car of a system […] Nobody at Meta knows what data Meta has"

      Everybody having worked in the industry knows perfectly well that this is the case for every single company bigger than 50 employees. Entropy always win.

      And that’s why we should fight corporations: those are soulless robot that nobody control anymore (It’s not new, Steinbeck already told us about this in The Grapes of Wrath")

      In conversation Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:11 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      silverwizard (silverwizard@convenient.email)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:12 JST silverwizard silverwizard
      in reply to
      • ploum
      • Dan Gillmor
      @privacat @ploum @dangillmor I had not read that post! Thanks for the clarity!

      So you approve of Meta's previous actions? And have you thought about their history of abuse, violence, and intentional harm? How does this history inform your desire to engage with their community? How does their history of power abuse and moderation disasters inform that desire?

      I am trying to understand your desire to bring a serial abuser into a community, and your desire to frame it as the first mover being community action.
      In conversation Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:12 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Carey Lening :blobcatverified: (privacat@dataprotection.social)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:12 JST Carey Lening :blobcatverified: Carey Lening :blobcatverified:
      in reply to
      • Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:
      • ploum

      @onepict @ploum

      Thanks for the response, and your thoughts. I will admit, I don't agree with a lot of it, but I do get where you're coming from. I think there's some degree of fractal complexity in these systems that many miss (I wrote about the problem of fractal complexity here: https://careylening.substack.com/p/test-post-thing).

      Some disclosures: I (briefly) worked for Meta in 2018-2019, when they were trying to rehabilitate themselves post CA/pre-GDPR. I naively thought I could change some of the particularly odious bad behaviors and practices, and it only took me a few months to realize that this was about as effective as me trying to sprout wings and fly.

      Part of the reason is that Meta isn't a monolith anymore; it's a messy, fragmented clown car of a system, a pile-on of various hacks, experiments, deprecated-but-not-yet-deprecated code, forgotten interconnections, and abandoned promo endeavors and efforts. Nobody at Meta knows what data Meta has (and I mean this very literally - they literally cannot comply with a DSAR effectively because they have _no_ clue about what their code is actually tracking, or at least that was the case in 2019).

      It's the equivalent of assuming there's a single world order who controls the "System". This shit is so big that while there might be people who know more, nobody (or no single team) knows everything, or even most things. Assuming that conscious efforts to destroy the AP/Fedi are being made by some shadowy leadership group is ascribing WAY too much intelligence and foresight to a group of people who probably thought it would just be cool if they could get on this AP/fedi bandwagon and siphon away Twitter users.

      And like, really, I think that's what the main end-goal is. To siphon away Twitter users by showing that Threads will be more like the social network people had on Twitter, back when everyone was on Twitter. FB knows it can't achieve that on its own, so they're going to coopt whatever system might give them an edge.

      You hinted at this in a later comment, and I think it's the most realistic basis for any of the P92 efforts. Or, even more cynically: A few people at Meta thought they could get a promo from this.

      In conversation Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:12 JST permalink

      Attachments

      1. Domain not in remote thumbnail source whitelist: substackcdn.com
        On Fractal Complexity
        from Carey Lening
        Reactive legislation is never a good solution.
    • Embed this notice
      Carey Lening :blobcatverified: (privacat@dataprotection.social)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:13 JST Carey Lening :blobcatverified: Carey Lening :blobcatverified:
      in reply to
      • silverwizard
      • ploum
      • Dan Gillmor

      @silverwizard @ploum @dangillmor

      The odds of this being a 'serious' question are low, and if you read my post history at all, you'd know the answer. I'll leave you with this.

      https://dataprotection.social/@privacat/110621509323840950

      In conversation Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:13 JST permalink

      Attachments

      1. Domain not in remote thumbnail source whitelist: dataprotection.social
        Carey Lening :blobcatverified: (@privacat@dataprotection.social)
        from Carey Lening :blobcatverified:
        @onepict@chaos.social @ploum@mamot.fr Thanks for the response, and your thoughts. I will admit, I don't agree with a lot of it, but I do get where you're coming from. I think there's some degree of fractal complexity in these systems that many miss (I wrote about the problem of fractal complexity here: https://careylening.substack.com/p/test-post-thing). Some disclosures: I (briefly) worked for Meta in 2018-2019, when they were trying to rehabilitate themselves post CA/pre-GDPR. I naively thought I could change some of the particularly odious bad behaviors and practices, and it only took me a few months to realize that this was about as effective as me trying to sprout wings and fly. Part of the reason is that Meta isn't a monolith anymore; it's a messy, fragmented clown car of a system, a pile-on of various hacks, experiments, deprecated-but-not-yet-deprecated code, forgotten interconnections, and abandoned promo endeavors and efforts. Nobody at Meta knows what data Meta has (and I mean this very literally - they literally cannot comply with a DSAR effectively because they have _no_ clue about what their code is actually tracking, or at least that was the case in 2019). It's the equivalent of assuming there's a single world order who controls the "System". This shit is so big that while there might be people who know more, nobody (or no single team) knows everything, or even most things. Assuming that conscious efforts to destroy the AP/Fedi are being made by some shadowy leadership group is ascribing WAY too much intelligence and foresight to a group of people who probably thought it would just be cool if they could get on this AP/fedi bandwagon and siphon away Twitter users. And like, really, I think that's what the main end-goal is. To siphon away Twitter users by showing that Threads will be more like the social network people had on Twitter, back when everyone was on Twitter. FB knows it can't achieve that on its own, so they're going to coopt whatever system might give them an edge. You hinted at this in a later comment, and I think it's the most realistic basis for any of the P92 efforts. Or, even more cynically: A few people at Meta thought they could get a promo from this.
    • Embed this notice
      Esther Payne :bisexual_flag: (onepict@chaos.social)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:13 JST Esther Payne :bisexual_flag: Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:
      in reply to
      • ploum

      @privacat @ploum I genuinely don't see the pact as gatekeeping, if it helps these are my thoughts about the fedipact and why I came to that conclusion.

      https://onepict.com/consent-fediverse20230627.html

      In conversation Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:13 JST permalink

      Attachments

      1. No result found on File_thumbnail lookup.
        Consent and the fediverse
    • Embed this notice
      Esther Payne :bisexual_flag: (onepict@chaos.social)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:15 JST Esther Payne :bisexual_flag: Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:
      in reply to
      • ploum
      • Dan Gillmor

      @privacat @ploum @dangillmor It's why when I suggested to my family to try it, I found an instance and found some guides. Although that's at the individual level.

      At Scale it's a lot harder to on-board.

      But I think it will come down to individual choice, including weither folk stay on Mastodon or go elsewhere for their next social network.

      For some of us this is like our 3 or 4 network. The first one you were on, always has the emotional punch of leaving.

      In conversation Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:15 JST permalink

      Attachments

      1. No result found on File_thumbnail lookup.
        easyname | Domain geparkt
    • Embed this notice
      Esther Payne :bisexual_flag: (onepict@chaos.social)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:16 JST Esther Payne :bisexual_flag: Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:
      in reply to
      • ploum
      • Dan Gillmor

      @privacat @ploum @dangillmor I think you've put your thoughts well on this.

      I do disagree, but that's mainly because I left Facebook. Which I did giving a full 6 month warning, with my email address and my mastodon handle.

      When I first came on the Fediverse, the learning curve was steep. It's better now. My point of view is that I think it depends on what you aim for on this network. For quite a few people on here, blocking for safety has been learned the hard way.

      In conversation Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 21:49:16 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      silverwizard (silverwizard@convenient.email)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 22:14:05 JST silverwizard silverwizard
      in reply to
      • ploum
      • Dan Gillmor
      • matthieu_xyz
      @privacat @matthieu_xyz @ploum @dangillmor Yeah - I am not a fan of the house party analogy. I'm a fan of the community analogy.

      But the community is a lot of things. And people are making decisions, for their communities. And so your issue seems to be that you don't want communities, you want one big ball of humanity mashed together? And you think that the best company to bring them in is Meta?

      OK - so I am completely unconvinced by two things - and I haven't seen you address them - but I think we have at least terminology.

      1) Why do all communities need to interact? We can have massive communities, and small ones, we can have lots of interaction and movement. Were you there for the times when we had to shutdown Gab and Poast? Now, Meta isn't Nazis, it just wants to steal and abuse us, and ideally would like to steal from and abuse *my* users, and I want to stop them. But it's scary to be the only one banning the Big New Instance, so we've decided to get together and show people that it will be safe to do it! Is that bad? Should we let Gab back in?

      2) Why Meta? Why is Meta the organization that should do this and be allowed to do this?
      In conversation Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 22:14:05 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Carey Lening :blobcatverified: (privacat@dataprotection.social)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 22:14:24 JST Carey Lening :blobcatverified: Carey Lening :blobcatverified:
      in reply to
      • silverwizard
      • ploum
      • Dan Gillmor
      • matthieu_xyz

      @silverwizard @ploum @dangillmor

      I have written more negative shit on Meta than I care to recall. I am _painfully_ familiar with how bad Meta has, and continues to be. Here's an example: https://careylening.substack.com/p/welcome-to-the-splinternet

      My problem with a 'ban-first' approach is that I worry that in order to be effective, any bans will require secondary banning of any instance who doesn't play along. Now, there may be a technical solution here that wouldn't splinter the Fediverse, as @matthieu_xyz has pointed out (https://calckey.social/notes/9gj7tlydaw0v89bu). I am 100% for that sort of thing, because that gives everyone agency, not just a minority of admins (minority in the sense that there are like 20k servers on Masto) majority power over teh federated network.

      This is why the house party examples being floated don't fly, btw.

      In conversation Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 22:14:24 JST permalink

      Attachments

      1. Domain not in remote thumbnail source whitelist: substackcdn.com
        Welcome to the Splinternet
        from Carey Lening
        Or how the European Data Protection Board, the Court of Justice for the EU and Max Schrems might be killing the internet.
      2. Domain not in remote thumbnail source whitelist: bunnyt1c.s3.us-east-005.backblazeb2.com
        Matthieu (@matthieu_xyz)
        @privacat@dataprotection.social @davey_cakes@mastodon.ie You can read this thread for more info on Authorized fetch. Limiting is also a great feature (it forces manual approval on follow requests)
    • Embed this notice
      silverwizard (silverwizard@convenient.email)'s status on Thursday, 29-Jun-2023 00:43:53 JST silverwizard silverwizard
      in reply to
      • ploum
      • Dan Gillmor
      • matthieu_xyz
      @privacat @ploum @dangillmor @matthieu_xyz Based on that.

      Shut up and go away.

      You don't like the community and you don't want it to be safe.

      That's fine you're allowed to do that. But stop writing fucking articles telling us we should be harmed by facebook and that we're bad people, elitists, and gatekeepers because we think facebook is bad.

      You seem to understand the contours of the problem, but just have no desire for a useful group of shared communities with their own rules.

      I can't believe that you think the Fediverse is closed. It's amazing. It's baffling. You seem to think that ejecting Facebook is the same as closing the doors for people entering. Which is an unshakable assumption you have, which is baffling and obtuse, and you should stop talking until you figure out why a person might disagree with that.
      In conversation Thursday, 29-Jun-2023 00:43:53 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Carey Lening :blobcatverified: (privacat@dataprotection.social)'s status on Thursday, 29-Jun-2023 00:43:54 JST Carey Lening :blobcatverified: Carey Lening :blobcatverified:
      in reply to
      • silverwizard
      • ploum
      • Dan Gillmor
      • matthieu_xyz

      @silverwizard @ploum @dangillmor @matthieu_xyz

      I'm getting a lot of related questions and tend to write novel-length responses, so I post what I responded to @ploum

      https://dataprotection.social/@privacat/110622529595459640

      In conversation Thursday, 29-Jun-2023 00:43:54 JST permalink

      Attachments

      1. Domain not in remote thumbnail source whitelist: dataprotection.social
        Carey Lening :blobcatverified: (@privacat@dataprotection.social)
        from Carey Lening :blobcatverified:
        @ploum@mamot.fr @claudegohier@mastodon.xyz @dangillmor@mastodon.social 1. My previous default network was Twitter, and my followers were all over the map -- likely due to being there for over a decade and me having a weird group of friends across a lot of different points in my life. There is less diversity (at least based on my followers). It skews far more techie, queer, and male. That said, I don't know if I would characterize Mastodon as niche currently - but as I said "I suspect that Masto ... _will_ be a very small group of folks who share a very specific worldview" -- at least if defederation is widely adopted and downstream defederation occurs. If we go to a more moderate approach, the results may vary. Separately, there's also evidence that active users on Mastodon (and servers) are going down organically. See: https://api.joinmastodon.org/statistics and that may exacerbate the problem. Some people, are of course, totally fine with that, and I suspect the people who are fine with that will stick around regardless, even if a splintered version of Masto exists. But I think it's hard to argue that if a schism occurs, it _wouldnt_ lead to a more niche Mastodon experience. 2. I think there are too many closed universes already (closed groups, tribes and subcultures, diametrically opposed political factions, etc. I _personally_ don't find those to be interesting or enriching. It's been my experience over the last three decades online that the more insular or hyper-specialized a group, the more It leads to echo-chambers, and sadly, extremist positions. I _personally_ like a lot of different things, and read and listen to a lot of varied voices (and I'm forcing myself to broaden that even more since I've started writing in earnest). I try to desperately avoid absolutist positions (though I acknowledge that sometimes I fail). I try to think about systemic failures and cross-interest observations of problems. That is, IMHO, only really possible if you expose yourself to a lot of different, and sometimes disagreeable perspectives. That isn't to say that I hang out with (or advocate condoning) nazis or fash, or TERFs, or am some sort of freezepeeches absolutist. I'm not. But I get that problems rarely have a single explanation, and when you realize that, you gain a little empathy and perspective on why black/white approaches tend to be more harm than good. Or in my case, why I can see Facebook as evil and still hold the view that the company != every user.
    • Embed this notice
      silverwizard (silverwizard@convenient.email)'s status on Thursday, 29-Jun-2023 01:37:33 JST silverwizard silverwizard
      in reply to
      • ploum
      • Dan Gillmor
      • matthieu_xyz
      @privacat @ploum @dangillmor @matthieu_xyz sorry

      I meant shut up.

      Get the fuck out of the comments

      You are literally saying you don't care if people defederate and don't oppose it, so stop being the concern troll in every comment thread
      In conversation Thursday, 29-Jun-2023 01:37:33 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Carey Lening :blobcatverified: (privacat@dataprotection.social)'s status on Thursday, 29-Jun-2023 01:37:34 JST Carey Lening :blobcatverified: Carey Lening :blobcatverified:
      in reply to
      • silverwizard
      • ploum
      • Dan Gillmor
      • matthieu_xyz

      @silverwizard
      Well that escalated quickly. Good to see that the response to someone with a different view is to tell people to go away. Kinda demonstrates my arguments about gatekeeping.

      Anyway, enjoy your life. I'm sticking around for now, but feel free to block me!

      @ploum @dangillmor @matthieu_xyz

      In conversation Thursday, 29-Jun-2023 01:37:34 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      silverwizard (silverwizard@convenient.email)'s status on Thursday, 29-Jun-2023 02:30:11 JST silverwizard silverwizard
      in reply to
      • ploum
      • Dan Gillmor
      • matthieu_xyz
      @ploum @dangillmor @privacat @matthieu_xyz I don't like when someone writes an incredibly long post, and then when questioned on it, immediately retreats and abandons that point.

      Every point she has been called on she had intentionally abandoned, but she has not gone back to reconsider.

      It would be less frustrating if she wasn't the person appearing in every conversation.

      As for my *tone*, well, I did my best to interrogate her points, and learn her side, and then when I found out it was vacuous concern trolling, I told her to stop engaging.
      In conversation Thursday, 29-Jun-2023 02:30:11 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      ploum (ploum@mamot.fr)'s status on Thursday, 29-Jun-2023 02:30:12 JST ploum ploum
      in reply to
      • silverwizard
      • Dan Gillmor
      • matthieu_xyz

      @silverwizard @dangillmor @privacat @matthieu_xyz : I don’t appreciate the tone and I oppose against the "stop writing articles".

      Writing is the best thing people can do to put order in their ideas, to find their own flaws and discover, sometimes year later, their own contradiction (at least for myself)

      It seems that Carey and I have divergent views of the world but, so far, the debate has been mostly civilized and I really appreciate that she takes the time to write longer pieces.

      In conversation Thursday, 29-Jun-2023 02:30:12 JST permalink

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