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1. Embed this notice
   Jupiter Rowland (jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu)'s status on Thursday, 15-Jun-2023 09:48:28 JST Jupiter Rowland

   in reply to

   • Sim
   @Sim :blobfoxcomputer: :ferris:
   How? By using your mastodon account to follow lemmy/kbin communities, and have a messy and subpar experience?
   (Deliberately used the quote feature here.)
   
   And the alternative would be to put the proverbial gun to Lemmy's chest and force them to adapt to Mastodon's "standards" for the convenience of Mastodon users?
   
   If Mastodon can't handle threads and posts with over 500 characters as properly as just about everything else in the #Fediverse, the problem isn't on the side of #Lemmy or #kbin. It's on Mastodon's side.
   
   Likewise, if Mastodon can't properly display quotes like the one above, and I've just demonstrated it can't, the problem is on Mastodon's side and not on the side of the many projects that do support quotes.
   
   Mastodon users tend to demand the whole rest of the Fediverse cut down on its features so that it works better with Mastodon and justify it with Mastodon having magnitudes more users than everything else combined.
   
   Also:
   You can't use your credentials from instance X to login on instance Y, so if you want to correctly participate on lemmy/kbin, you need an account on one of these instances.
   (Another quote which Mastodon can't display. Blame Mastodon. #Hubzilla here works perfectly well.)
   
   To take Hubzilla as a different example: So you want to only log into hachyderm.io, then go to hub.netzgemeinde.eu and create a wiki or a long-form blog or a photo gallery or set up a cloud storage with WebDAV, CalDAV and CardDAV right away, all with your hachyderm.io login? Is that what you want?
   • Embed this notice
     Sim (0xsim@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 15-Jun-2023 09:48:29 JST Sim

     in reply to

     • maegul

     @jupiter_rowland @maegul

     > but who don't know that they can use their already existing Mastodon accounts to join Lemmy communities and /kbin magazines.

     How? By using your mastodon account to follow lemmy/kbin communities, and have a messy and subpar experience?

     You can't use your credentials from instance X to login on instance Y, so if you want to correctly participate on lemmy/kbin, you need an account on one of these instances.

   • Embed this notice
     maegul (maegul@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 15-Jun-2023 09:48:31 JST maegul

     in reply to

     • Fediverse News
     • ♾️ Yuki (스노 雪亮) 🐬 🧮🗝️

     @youronlyone @fediversenews

     Generally, I'm probing at the possibility that too much is made of the protocol and not enough of the importance of getting the software right, not just specifically to a particular platform, but globally, in terms of the overall structures and designs of the platforms that are being built.

     I think we might agree here somewhat.

     Otherwise, you highlight that much activity occurs over the protocol. But that's between similar platforms. Lemmy<->Masto?

     3/3

   • Embed this notice
     Jupiter Rowland (jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu)'s status on Thursday, 15-Jun-2023 09:48:31 JST Jupiter Rowland

     in reply to

     • maegul
     • ♾️ Yuki (스노 雪亮) 🐬 🧮🗝️
     @maegul @♾️ Yuki (스노 雪亮) 🐬 🧮🗝️ Again, that's because we have 10 million #Mastodon users who haven't even heard of #Lemmy, much less #kbin. They can't use what they don't even know exists.
     
     On top of these, we have at least 1.9 million Mastodon users who have at least heard of Lemmy, but who don't know that they can use their already existing Mastodon accounts to join Lemmy communities and /kbin magazines.
     
     If you want more interaction between Mastodon and Lemmy, then people on Mastodon with gajillions of followers like Eugen Rochko, Greta Thunberg or George Takei would have to advertise Lemmy and its Mastodon compatibility and link to the Lemmy community browser once a week for at least half a year until everyone and their dog knows.
   • Embed this notice
     maegul (maegul@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 15-Jun-2023 09:48:32 JST maegul

     in reply to

     • Fediverse News
     • ♾️ Yuki (스노 雪亮) 🐬 🧮🗝️

     @youronlyone @fediversenews

     Part of the problem with getting a community based platform off of the ground is how to get sufficiently active communities. This is where the "fediverse" comes in. If the federation is a "killer feature", then arguably activity should spread across platforms and formats so that newer spaces and platforms become easier to seed over time.

     You highlight that the problem is software not the protocol. I agree! But then ask what value the protocol provides.

     2/

   • Embed this notice
     maegul (maegul@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 15-Jun-2023 09:48:33 JST maegul

     in reply to

     • Fediverse News
     • ♾️ Yuki (스노 雪亮) 🐬 🧮🗝️

     @youronlyone @fediversenews
     Yea, not sure I entirely agree.

     By "fediverse" I'm referring to the collective quality of the whole, however much any part is responsible.

     I'm also presuming (accurately enough AFAICT) that interaction between mastodon users and #lemmy/#kbin is not high compared to interactions internal to #lemmy/#kbin.

     Sure, the software has problems, but much of the attraction of the #threadiverse depends on the level of activity and number and size of communities.

     1/

   • Embed this notice
     ♾️ Yuki (스노 雪亮) 🐬 🧮🗝️ (youronlyone@calckey.social)'s status on Thursday, 15-Jun-2023 09:48:35 JST ♾️ Yuki (스노 雪亮) 🐬 🧮🗝️

     in reply to

     • Fediverse News
     • maegul

     @maegul@hachyderm.io @fediversenews@venera.social
     
     If they leave because there is not much interaction between link-aggregator types of software (as Wikipedia calls it) and Mastodon software, then it is the failure of those software, not the #Fediverse.
     
     Always remember, the fediverse is ALL software communicating through the #ActivityPub protocol. Mastodon is a software. Lemmy is a software. Kbin is a software.
     
     If your question is about the fediverse, then I don't see how this applies:I’m leaning yes. If cross-platform activity is essentially irrelevant but more of a minor awkward perk at times then the fediverse doesn’t exist (yet) at the level of being a social media platform or space.Because there is a lot of engagement happening in the fediverse network. It is not a “minor awkward perk at times”
     
     You have to reshape your thinking about what the Fediverse is.
     1. The Fediverse is not Mastodon. (That's like saying Asia is China.)
     2. Mastodon is just one part of the Fediverse network. (Or, China is just one part of Asia.)
     3. This so-called “threadiverse” is only one part of the Fediverse network, it is not a separate thing. (This usage of “threadiverse” is what's causing the confusion.)
     4. There is no “mastoverse” or any “-verse” because they can all interoperate, engage, communicate, with each other through the ActivityPub protocol.
     
     Your current thinking, if I may, is like this:
     a. There is a yahooverse (ref: threadiverse).
     b. And email (ref: fediverse) and gmail (ref: Mastodon) are interchangable.
     c. And sometimes it can also be called gmailverse (ref: mastoverse).
     
     There is no “insufficient activity” in the fediverse network. There are already some people who left who said there is too much noise, and it is so hard to keep up with everything.
     
     If Reddit migrants leave because of a supposed “insufficient activity”, it probably is due to the software they are using. Maybe the software has a bug. Or, maybe the software chose not to show to the users how very active the fediverse is, and their only interaction with the fediverse is if someone replies to their “Thread”. (And as an aside, this is where Kbin wins because it shows the wider fediverse through its “microblog” feature/tab.)
     
     ---
     
     I hope it makes sense. It's hard to explain things if English is not not one's primary language, and with that I apologise if it was confusing or too wordy.

   • Embed this notice
     maegul (maegul@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 15-Jun-2023 09:48:36 JST maegul

     • Fediverse News

     If there isn’t much cross-platform engagement between the #threadiverse and #mastodon, and Reddit migrants leave because of insufficient activity … is this a failure of sorts of the #fediverse ?

     I’m leaning yes. If cross-platform activity is essentially irrelevant but more of a minor awkward perk at times then the fediverse doesn’t exist (yet) at the level of being a social media platform or space.

     Instead, it’s a tool for FOSS platforms to scale through decentralisation.

     @fediversenews

   • Embed this notice
     Jupiter Rowland (jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu)'s status on Thursday, 15-Jun-2023 10:34:58 JST Jupiter Rowland

     in reply to

     • Sim
     @Sim :blobfoxcomputer: :ferris: Quotes aren't exclusive to Hubzilla.
     
     Lemmy has quotes.
     /kbin has quotes.
     Akkoma has quotes.
     MissKey has quotes.
     CalcKey has quotes.
     Friendica has quotes.
     Hubzilla has quotes.
     (streams) has quotes.
     The various dead projects between Hubzilla and (streams) all have quotes.
     
     Just a few examples.
     
     Pretty much only Mastodon and Pleroma don't have quotes.
   • Embed this notice
     Sim (0xsim@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 15-Jun-2023 10:34:59 JST Sim

     in reply to

     @jupiter_rowland

     Also:

     > (Deliberately used the quote feature here.)

     > (Another quote which Mastodon can't display. Blame Mastodon. #Hubzilla here works perfectly well.)

     > Mastodon users tend to demand the whole rest of the Fediverse cut down on its features

     That's now how you'll get newcomers feel welcome and try your oh-so-superior hubzilla. Touch some grass.

   • Embed this notice
     Sim (0xsim@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 15-Jun-2023 10:35:00 JST Sim

     in reply to

     @jupiter_rowland

     > Mastodon users tend to demand the whole rest of the Fediverse cut down on its features

     No? Different apps have different UIs to fit their different features and ways to communicate.

     > So you want to only log into hachyderm.io, then go to hub.netzgemeinde.eu (...) Is that what you want?

     I want to use my Mastodon creds to login into any #Lemmy or #kbin instance. That's all I want. Not jump through hoops. I don't know if ActivityPub protocol permits this, but it should.

   • Embed this notice
     Mark Prior (markrprior@ohai.social)'s status on Thursday, 15-Jun-2023 20:37:55 JST Mark Prior

     in reply to

     • goatsarah

     @jupiter_rowland @goatsarah It sounds like you want to force Mastodon to support features that are out of its scope because "your software" does them. As far as I know Mastodon doesn't try to pretend to be anything but a microblogging platform and that comes with some constraints. Perhaps you need to develop a capability exchange protocol to determine what can be exchanged and then work out a solution within those constraints? Of course Mastodon would point you at its instance API.

   • Embed this notice
     Jupiter Rowland (jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu)'s status on Thursday, 15-Jun-2023 20:37:56 JST Jupiter Rowland

     • goatsarah
     @Sarah Brown
     Like, you can federate full blogposts and suchlike, but Mastodon will strip away all the inline images and then just display the first 4 in a grid at the end.
     The last four, actually. In reverse order even. At least in the cases I'm aware of.
     
     At least you can circumvent this on Hubzilla by writing long-form stuff with lots of embedded pictures not as posts, but as articles in the "Articles" app. Mastodon users will only get a link to the article which will then open in their Web browser which, in turn, will display it the intended way.
     
     It's still a pity that you have to take such measures and refrain from using the features Hubzilla offers at post level to their full extent because that'd confuse 12 million users of a deliberately feature-lacking project. And users on, for example, Friendica and (streams) aren't so lucky because they don't have a separate long-form-writing method at hand and have to rely on external projects like WriteFreely which means one more account and one more login. On top, there's the effort of following your own blog and resharing each new blog post notification to your followers because not even 2% of them will follow your blog. Not to mention countless whining iPhone users because they have to have Safari start up to read your long-form posts.
   • Embed this notice
     Mark Prior (markrprior@ohai.social)'s status on Thursday, 15-Jun-2023 20:48:12 JST Mark Prior

     • goatsarah

     @goatsarah @jupiter_rowland yes my point was that at the moment if you ask Mastodon to do microblogging stuff within its advertised constraints then it works. If you expect it to do "out of scope" stuff then expect the unexpected if anything at all.

   • Embed this notice
     mike (mike@macgirvin.com)'s status on Friday, 16-Jun-2023 07:28:54 JST mike

     in reply to

     • Mark Prior
     This isn't about Mastodon doing microblogging stuff. They can do what they want. But when it comes to interoperability with other software using an internet standard protocol, this is about Mastodon supporting the specifications of that internet standard protocol.
     
     https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#dfn-content
     
     By default, the value of content is HTML. The mediaType property can be used in the object to indicate a different content type.
     
     Note it doesn't say the default value of content is "text/plain with 'a' tags". It says "HTML". From memory, HTML supports a few more tags besides 'a'. That's in a different set of specifications, if you want to verify. Specifications are important for standard protocols if you want different things to work together.
     goatsarah likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Mark Prior (markrprior@ohai.social)'s status on Friday, 16-Jun-2023 14:29:15 JST Mark Prior

     in reply to

     • mike
     • goatsarah

     @goatsarah @jupiter_rowland @mike The Mastodon server has done a transformation of the message it received via ActivityPub and has stored it as a Mastodon formatted message. It is serving this message to its clients and not the original message.

     goatsarah likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Mark Prior (markrprior@ohai.social)'s status on Friday, 16-Jun-2023 14:29:16 JST Mark Prior

     • mike
     • goatsarah

     @goatsarah @jupiter_rowland @mike Prefixing this with the comment that I haven't read the ActivityPub spec nor the Mastodon source but based on my experience developing Internet standards.
     Mastodon Clients are communicating with Mastodon Servers via the Mastodon API (with some nodeinfo API thrown in to know it's Mastodon probably). This will define what they see as the content of a message and how they render a message. It won't matter to them if the message started out in a richer format.