Conversation

Notices

1. Embed this notice
   Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 04:22:21 JST Chris Trottier

   • Eugen Rochko
   • Fediverse News

   #Bluesky now allows you to “choose your own algorithm”.
   
   Which sounds “incredible” and “sci-fi”—but it really isn’t.
   
   What it essentially does is give a Twitter-like service Reddit-like features.
   
   As an aside, now I’m wondering why Reddit doesn’t offer an alternative web front-end to make it more Twitter-like!
   
   But how does this apply to the #ActivityPub flavour of the #Fediverse? This feature now makes me realize how big a deal Fediverse groups are going to be, and if I were @Gargron@mastodon.social, I’d be even more excited about rolling out Mastodon’s group functionality.
   
   Because while groups aren’t exactly relevancy algorithms, once you add a “New”, “Hot”, “Best”, etc. feed to groups, now you’re in business.
   
   I don’t know if choosing your own algorithm is the killer feature that Bluesky thinks it is. My experience is that most people hate choice. Nevertheless, I still thinks it’s important.
   
   @fediversenews@venera.social

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 04:31:35 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     If this is "choosing your own algorithm", #Calckey has actually had this feature long, long ago.
     
     We call it "Antennas" -- and you can easily build an antenna yourself.
     
     Here's a screenshot for Antenna creation settings.

   • Embed this notice
     Jyn Erso Lives! (jynersolives@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 06:29:57 JST Jyn Erso Lives!

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet Is it possible to somehow prevent Antennas from searching through unlisted posts? Or to put it another way: what posts do Antennas search and what posts remain invisible to them?

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 06:29:57 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • Jyn Erso Lives!

     @jynersolives@mastodon.social I haven't seen an unlisted post in an Antenna yet.

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 06:32:04 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     So I'm thinking about this in more detail, and I think the "choose your own algorithm" feature with #Bluesky is really not hard to implement, and something very doable on the #Fediverse.
     
     What do we exactly want from an algorithm? Topics.
     
     And we want topics sorted according to the following:
     
     1. Hot
     2. New
     3. Top
     4. Rising
     
     Some people would like a "controversial" feed, but we don't have to give it to them 😉
     
     As for "Top", we can sort it according to time parameters.

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 06:34:53 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • Jyn Erso Lives!

     @jynersolives@mastodon.social I haven't seen an unlisted post in an Antenna yet.

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 06:40:47 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • Alex

     @mentallyalex@beige.party Well, the way you combat bad actors is to not allow black box algorithms. Make them transparent. Basically show everyone how the sandwich is made.
     
     My objection to algorithms isn’t that the exist. Everything in computer science has algorithms.
     
     My objection is that Big Social dictates relevancy, and I have no say in the matter.
     
     That said, algorithms that focus on drama and outrage should absolutely be banned even if they’re transparent.

   • Embed this notice
     Alex (mentallyalex@beige.party)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 06:40:49 JST Alex

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet though not completely opposed I would be curious how we could mitigate bad actors manipulating the algorithms?

     I would imagine that Fedi services could adopt them. For example, maybe Calckey would offer algorithm whereas Misskey didn't?

     I can absolutely see a benefit in allowing for some computational assistance.

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 06:45:12 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • dadalo_admin

     @dadalo_admin@dadalo.pl Why do you want this?

   • Embed this notice
     dadalo_admin (dadalo_admin@dadalo.pl)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 06:45:14 JST dadalo_admin

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet

     5. Dramas :troll_face:
     6. FlameWars 🔥

   • Embed this notice
     SparkIT (sparkit@misskey.social)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 06:54:48 JST SparkIT

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet@calckey.social I think #kbin magazines are also a good example of something similar to Bluesky's lists because they seem to work like subreddits but every user can create one choosing several hashtags to follow (and maybe other conditions? Not sure about that) and other people can subscribe so it's an interesting mix.

     Chris Trottier likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 06:55:12 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • SparkIT

     @sparkit@misskey.social I was actually thinking about this too.

   • Embed this notice
     betty (micenest@calckey.social)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 06:57:35 JST betty

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet proudly make usage of that ever since i moved instances - to get the timeline of specific instances and users without that much clutter :bun:

     Chris Trottier likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     sub_o (sub_o@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 07:07:34 JST sub_o

     in reply to

     • Ay Eye Ate Dub Yah ✡︎ :ally:

     @admin @atomicpoet If you want to have some sort of algo / recommendation, then just make sure that it's not on the home timeline.

     Do it like the explore page. An extra column for it.

     Honestly I'd like to have top posts, but only for specified instances.

     Because I'm getting bored seeing the same Americans doing the same routine "Wow Elon / conservatives / NYT are nazis" every day feigning surprises.

     Chris Trottier likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Ay Eye Ate Dub Yah ✡︎ :ally: (admin@mastodon.ai8w.ddns.net)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 07:07:35 JST Ay Eye Ate Dub Yah ✡︎ :ally:

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet I Want none of this on Mastodon. If I want someone to tell me what I should be paying attention to, or what I should be afraid of, I'll talk to my wife, or turn on CNN or FOX news (the latter for the lulz, of course).
     I enjoy being able to determine what I see here, as opposed to the crap-crammed-down-my-throat algorithms of other social media outlets.
     Why WHY WHY would anyone want to turn Mastodon into Twitter?

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 07:12:27 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • sub_o
     • Ay Eye Ate Dub Yah ✡︎ :ally:

     @sub_o@mastodon.social @admin@mastodon.ai8w.ddns.net Well, this is why #Calckay’s antennas are such a godsend—because they allow you to build an algorithm focused on topics. And you can be specific about source, date, arguments, etc.

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 07:33:55 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • Eugen Rochko
     • Fediverse News
     • matthieu_xyz

     @matthieu_xyz @Gargron@mastodon.social @fediversenews@venera.social This is a good summary, and explains everything well. My takeaway is that we can do it better with less resources and with more transparency. Antennas really are a better option.

   • Embed this notice
     matthieu_xyz@calckey.social's status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 07:34:03 JST matthieu_xyz

     in reply to

     • Eugen Rochko
     • Fediverse News

     @atomicpoet @Gargron@mastodon.social @fediversenews@venera.social
     
     I don’t like algorithms much, because every algorithm becomes a game and some clout-chasers are very good at games and even cheat. The Bluesky’s "12 likes to be on what’s hot" feed was already pretty terrible. You just need 12 friends to get in there. The new "what’s hot" is also terrible, because it’s a reddit-like hot algorithm except for the entire platform not for a group and once a post get there it can stay on top for the entire day. It’s basically reddit karma farming. 0% chronological (But understand why people with large following like this)
     
     I also don’t like the idea of likes becoming a measurement of a post’s worth. On mastodon likes are benevolent and boost is the actual "I want more people to see this" button. What about emoji reactions? If I react with a 🫠 is this supposed to be a like? A dislike? To me the worth of a fediverse post is by the number of boosts and I hope it stays this way.
     
     What I PARTICULARLY don’t like is the way bluesky implemented their custom feeds. It’s not a plugin written in AIscript running on your instance server nor on your client. It’s literally some random dude’s server running unknown code. Meaning on top of trusting the software running on your client, the software running on your instance server (PDS), the software running on the BGS (which is a separate service) you know have to trust N services offering you N different "custom" feeds. "Make your own feed" doesn’t mean select a few keywords, it means run an entire server on your own.
     
     But still, we can learn from bluesky. Algorithms aren’t all bad and we can have more than just chronological orders. The Mutuals feed is very popular and simple to add, the catch-up feed is interesting when people login only once a day and don’t want to scroll their entire timeline since yesterday, etc. We can add a little bit more choice in our timelines.
     
     But I still I prefer my antennas than having to ask a third-party dev, please can you make a custom feed following this keyword for me? This isn’t freedom of choice to the users...

   • Embed this notice
     narF 🎲 (narf@mstdn.fr)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 08:10:37 JST narF 🎲

     in reply to

     • Fediverse News
     • matthieu_xyz

     @atomicpoet @fediversenews @matthieu_xyz I wrote this thread about sorting algorithmn for Mastodon 3 years ago and it got a lot of interest and replies.

     https://mstdn.fr/@narF/104887310401243826

     It's sad that there isn't an implementation of it yet.

     Chris Trottier likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 14:20:42 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • Steve Bate

     @steve@social.technoetic.com For trending posts, Mastodon uses a combination of likes and boosts.

   • Embed this notice
     Steve Bate (steve@social.technoetic.com)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 14:20:51 JST Steve Bate

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet How would you determine "Hot", "Top", "Rising"? Mastodon, and probably other implementations, don't federate likes. That may be true for reply counts too.

   • Embed this notice
     Laurens Hof (laurenshof@calckey.social)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 17:21:46 JST Laurens Hof

     in reply to

     • Eugen Rochko
     • Fediverse News
     • matthieu_xyz

     @matthieu_xyz @atomicpoet @Gargron@mastodon.social @fediversenews@venera.social good post, I agree.
     
     I do like the feed that just got added today on bluesky, that shows the first post of new users signing up. That might be helpful for onboarding new people, and something that fedi can probably take some inspiration from.

     Chris Trottier likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 17:24:24 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • Graham Downs

     @GrahamDowns@c.im I'm not talking about Mastodon.

   • Embed this notice
     Graham Downs (grahamdowns@c.im)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 17:24:25 JST Graham Downs

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet I want no algorithm at all. Always show me the latest posts and boosts from my followees, and nothing else, in reverse chronological order.

     For me, this place is all about what's happening now among the people I'm interested in. When I open Mastodon in the morning, and glance at it occasionally during the day, I want it to feel like walking into a party, sitting down and listening to the currently ongoing conversations, inferring what they're talking about, and jumping in.

     I'm not interested in anything any of my followees said 10 hours ago, no matter how popular it is. Nor am I interested in anything they Favourited/Liked.

     The single biggest thing that drew me to Mastodon from Twitter was exactly that: it's pre-algorithm Twitter, and the fact that Twitter got an algorithm is the worst thing that ever happened, and I've resented them ever since.

     The last thing I want is for Mastodon to force an algorithm on me. :-(

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 17:34:55 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • Graham Downs

     @GrahamDowns@c.im Too late. *key apps have had antennas forever, and people love them.
     
     You can't push your preferences onto the rest of the Fediverse.

   • Embed this notice
     Graham Downs (grahamdowns@c.im)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 17:34:56 JST Graham Downs

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet Fair enough. My comments stand for any #fediverse-compliant network/client, though. :-)

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 17:45:50 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • Graham Downs

     @GrahamDowns@c.im Then why do you care about apps that you don't use?

   • Embed this notice
     Graham Downs (grahamdowns@c.im)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 17:45:51 JST Graham Downs

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet I'm not. I'm just asking for a setting that allows me to keep my own preferences, and doesn't force anyone else's onto me. :)

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 17:59:21 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • Graham Downs

     @GrahamDowns@c.im *key apps have existed since 2014, two years before Mastodon arrived on the scene. And they haven't affected your use of Mastodon one bit.
     
     Rather, the entire time you've been convinced that no "algorithms" exist on the Fediverse when this is simply not the case, and hasn't been for some time.
     
     Stick to your preferences. There's no reason to inquire about someone else's.

   • Embed this notice
     Graham Downs (grahamdowns@c.im)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 17:59:22 JST Graham Downs

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet Interesting question. I guess because I... might use it in the future?

     Or because maybe someone who shares my preference discovers the fediverse through one of those apps (just like I did with Mastodon), gets dissillusioned because it doesn't have an option to remove all algorithms from the main timeline (before they've had time to learn that there's more to the fediverse than just that app), leaves and never comes back?

   • Embed this notice
     Chris Trottier (atomicpoet@calckey.social)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 18:06:18 JST Chris Trottier

     in reply to

     • Graham Downs

     @GrahamDowns@c.im All good.

   • Embed this notice
     Graham Downs (grahamdowns@c.im)'s status on Tuesday, 30-May-2023 18:06:19 JST Graham Downs

     in reply to

     @atomicpoet That's fair enough. I shouldn't've actually replied on that thread and told you my preference without being asked and without really understanding the context.

     Because I don't really know much (if anything) about calckey anyway.

     I apologise.

     In South African English, there's this saying when someone jumps into an ongoing conversation without really understand what it's about: we say they're "picking up stompies" (a stompie is a slang term for a cigarette butt).

     Apologies for picking up stompies there. I really need to work on not doing that.