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   Dan Wentzel 🏳️‍🌈 (danwentzel@urbanists.social)'s status on Wednesday, 05-Apr-2023 19:46:50 JST Dan Wentzel 🏳️‍🌈

   “My hot take on “15 minute cities” is if you can get to the coffee shop within fifteen minutes, but the barrista who makes your drink can’t afford to live closer than a half-hour away, then you live in a theme park.” - Gareth Klieber #cities #urbanism

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     thomas bohn (tehabe@norden.social)'s status on Wednesday, 05-Apr-2023 19:46:49 JST thomas bohn

     in reply to

     @danwentzel no, than you don't live in a 15 minutes city

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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Wednesday, 05-Apr-2023 20:04:25 JST clacke

     in reply to

     • thomas bohn

     @tehabe @danwentzel I think that was the point, but I don't have the context. Whatever the original intent, in this form I agree 100%:

     You and the barista get to the coffee shop in 15 mins = 15 mins city

     You get to coffee shop in 15 mins, barista commutes = theme park

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     cleopatra@c.im's status on Wednesday, 05-Apr-2023 20:04:30 JST Cleopatra

     in reply to

     @danwentzel
     A real 15-minute city is one with mixed-cost housing and mixed schools and not a yuppie version of a gated community in a crazy-expensive city center

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     Cragsand :verified_coffee: (cragsand@universeodon.com)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 00:02:02 JST Cragsand :verified_coffee:

     in reply to

     • Not Just Bikes 🇳🇱
     • AT-AT Assault :verifiedtrans:
     • Trillian ✅✝️ 🇬🇧👍
     • SirLich

     @SirLich @atatassault @oldrawgabbit @danwentzel
     I never realized the privilege I have, being born and living in Sweden. I don't own a car and can bike to work and perform all my errands within 15 minutes.

     Learning about how north American cities and urban planning is done is a complete horror show to me and really opened my eyes.

     I have @notjustbikes to thank for educating me.
     #urbanplanning #notjustbikes #waroncars #cars #urban #walkablecities #15minutecities #cities #stroads #stroad #stroads
     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORzNZUeUHAM

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     AT-AT Assault :verifiedtrans: (atatassault@universeodon.com)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 00:02:08 JST AT-AT Assault :verifiedtrans:

     in reply to

     • Trillian ✅✝️ 🇬🇧👍

     @oldrawgabbit @danwentzel

     So you're just going to ignore all the examples that are found in Europe where it does work?

     Road traffic is bad because the majority of commuters in the US take up 50 square feet (or more) of road space for one person. AKA, one car per person. Robust public transport (busses and trains), plus mixed use zoning (you can walk from your home to most where you need to go) are how we solve the problems US cities face.

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     SirLich (sirlich@mastodon.gamedev.place)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 00:02:08 JST SirLich

     in reply to

     • AT-AT Assault :verifiedtrans:
     • Trillian ✅✝️ 🇬🇧👍

     @atatassault @oldrawgabbit @danwentzel Yeah what's going on here... lol.

     I moved to Germany and lived in a small town along the Rhine. I could walk to: supermarket(s), dentist, hair cutting, pharmacy, doctor office, auto shop, gas station, school, church, eye doctor, bar, restaurant etc.

     And there was public transportation to larger cities (19minutes).

     I don't think anyone was commuting to work in my little town.

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     Trillian ✅✝️ 🇬🇧👍 (oldrawgabbit@mastodon.world)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 00:02:09 JST Trillian ✅✝️ 🇬🇧👍

     in reply to

     @danwentzel I so agree. I think about the Cleaner travelling from home to home, the Babysitter, the parents taking their kids to their school of choice, the university student, the tradespeople.... the idea behind low traffic or no traffic might be inspiring but in practice it cannot work.

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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 00:46:41 JST clacke

     in reply to

     • Trillian ✅✝️ 🇬🇧👍
     @oldrawgabbit @danwentzel Why do the babysitter, cleaner and a good school have to be so far away? Sounds like bad planning and/or a highly stratified society.
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     Orion (he/him) (orionkidder@writing.exchange)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 02:17:44 JST Orion (he/him)

     in reply to

     @danwentzel Worth adding: 15 minutes doesn’t necessarily mean walking. Really good transit can create a healthier commuter culture. It’s way more energy and space efficient. It doesn’t clog roads. It polluted far less, etc.

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     valhalla (valhalla@social.gl-como.it)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 02:19:05 JST valhalla

     in reply to

     • clacke
     • Trillian ✅✝️ 🇬🇧👍
     @clacke @oldrawgabbit @danwentzel Indeed, I can get that universities may have to be a bit more remote (ideally with enough local housing for the students, however), but there is really no reason not to have schools up to something like 8-ish grade¹ everywhere, and some variation of quality will happen, but having outright bad schools is quite an evil in itself that should be fixed.
     
     ¹ the actual grade depends on how schools work in a specific country, but something around that.
     
     (and I say this as somebody who doesn't exactly like living in a 15 minutes town)
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     Texty the Bard (textualdeviance@retro.pizza)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 02:20:58 JST Texty the Bard

     in reply to

     @danwentzel In other words, until we solve underlying injustice problems, there can be no equitable urban planning.

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     Texty the Bard (textualdeviance@retro.pizza)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 02:20:59 JST Texty the Bard

     in reply to

     @danwentzel Honestly, I just wish all these urban Utopia planners would remember that disabled people exist, and that not all disabilities involve wheelchairs or qualify for accommodations such as parking permits. Forcing people to live/work in high rise buildings (in which we die if evacuations are needed) and rely on transit excludes a *lot* of people from those "walkable" cities. If I can't have a car and the closest bus stop is five blocks away, I'm housebound.

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     Chris Pitts (thirstybear@agilodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 10:09:53 JST Chris Pitts

     in reply to

     @danwentzel I would go further and say that if your barista cannot afford to live *15 minutes* away, then you have missed the whole point of 15 minute cities entirely!

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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 10:12:01 JST clacke

     in reply to

     • Gabor
     • Cleopatra
     @gabor @Cleopatra @danwentzel Otherwise hypercapitalist Hong Kong manages to do this, because they know people need homes.
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     Gabor (gabor@fosstodon.org)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 10:12:02 JST Gabor

     in reply to

     • Cleopatra

     @Cleopatra @danwentzel are there really big cities with "mixed-cost housing"? Kind of hard for me to even imagine.

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     mnemonicoverload (mnemonicoverload@libranet.de)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 10:13:56 JST mnemonicoverload

     in reply to

     • mnemonicoverload
     • Texty the Bard
     @danwentzel @textualdeviance That's fair but there's nothing inherent to 15 minute cities that entails active hostility towards cars. Deprioritizing cars doesn't mean eliminating them, or even not accommodating them adequately. Rather improving infrastructure for walking, bikes, and transit and reducing the need to commute long distances daily typically makes driving a measurably *better* (and safer) experience.
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     Texty the Bard (textualdeviance@retro.pizza)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 10:13:57 JST Texty the Bard

     in reply to

     • mnemonicoverload

     @mnemonicoverload @danwentzel Depends on how you're defining "disabled." Official definitions tend to stick to the very narrow parameters set for qualifying for accommodations, but that excludes millions. And even if that number is accurate, the 40% still should be considered. Increasing density, transit and walking/biking options shouldn't mean making urban areas completely hostile to cars and people who aren't safe in high rises.

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     mnemonicoverload (mnemonicoverload@libranet.de)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 10:13:58 JST mnemonicoverload

     in reply to

     • Texty the Bard

     @textualdeviance
     Not sure where you're getting the idea that 15 minute cities equals "can't have a car", but it's probably worth repeating that some 60%+ of disabled people (a majority) can't legally drive at all.

     @danwentzel

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     Luca Rood (lucarood@mastodon.gamedev.place)'s status on Friday, 07-Apr-2023 03:28:22 JST Luca Rood

     in reply to

     @danwentzel I don't think that qualifies as a hot take on 15 minute cities, because what's being described there just isn't 15 minute cities. Isn't one of the principles of 15 minute cities that everyone can get to work within 15 minutes?

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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Apr-2023 10:08:56 JST clacke

     in reply to

     • thomas bohn
     • Notavi
     @StryderNotavi @tehabe @danwentzel That's fair. Just phrase it as a criticism of failure to do it right, not a "hot take" on a distortion of the concept framed as if it were the actual concept.
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     Notavi (strydernotavi@aus.social)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Apr-2023 10:09:01 JST Notavi

     in reply to

     • thomas bohn

     @tehabe @danwentzel We need a name for posts like this - both technically correct and yet completely missing the point.

     Yes - they don't live in a 15 minute city. But most people aren't aware enough to notice that if *their* travel and commute is within 15 minutes, and politicians are cynical enough to exploit that.

     Thus the need to remind people that 15 minute city needs to apply to more than just them.

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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Apr-2023 10:14:42 JST clacke

     in reply to

     • ms_xenophora 🐚
     • Baloo Uriza

     @BalooUriza @danwentzel @xenophora It's fair to call it a theme park or other derogatory label until it gets there.

     If it's going the right direction, that's of course good to acknowledge too. But in particular, acknowledge that the right direction exists and is achievable and don't make the criticism sound like it's all hopeless and a scam and we should just keep making even worse plans.

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     Baloo Uriza (baloouriza@social.tulsa.ok.us)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Apr-2023 10:14:44 JST Baloo Uriza

     in reply to

     • ms_xenophora 🐚

     @xenophora This. Need real regulation on minimum wages and maximum rents. Also @danwentzel isn't entirely accurate on the theme park aspect, as this also happens for a bit in a city that is making improvements but still has a long way to go.

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     ms_xenophora 🐚 (xenophora@mastodon.art)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Apr-2023 10:14:45 JST ms_xenophora 🐚

     in reply to

     • Baloo Uriza

     @BalooUriza @danwentzel

     [nod] Some people think you can just cycle your way out of this. Cycles are great, but no. You can't. :/

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     Baloo Uriza (baloouriza@social.tulsa.ok.us)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Apr-2023 10:14:46 JST Baloo Uriza

     in reply to

     @danwentzel Ah, yes, the Portland problem, where the median income is roughly a 30-hour/week part-time minimum-wage job but the average rent is $2000/mo...

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     Baloo Uriza (baloouriza@social.tulsa.ok.us)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Apr-2023 10:17:35 JST Baloo Uriza

     in reply to

     • ms_xenophora 🐚
     • clacke

     @clacke Problem is if you call someplace Disneyland enough times it'll just give up on being progressive and lean into being Disneyland. Figuratively what Portland and Seattle did, literally what Reedy Creek did.

     Though in Reedy Creek's defense, it was founded by Disney.

     @xenophora @danwentzel

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     mnemonicoverload (mnemonicoverload@libranet.de)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Apr-2023 10:51:04 JST mnemonicoverload

     in reply to

     • Not Just Bikes 🇳🇱
     • AT-AT Assault :verifiedtrans:
     • Trillian ✅✝️ 🇬🇧👍
     • Cragsand :verified_coffee:
     • SirLich

     @cragsand
     Notjustbikes really do have great videos on the subject, aside from saying "North America" when they really just mean US & Canada. Mexico is a North American country too.

     @notjustbikes @danwentzel @SirLich @oldrawgabbit @atatassault

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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Apr-2023 11:13:35 JST clacke

     in reply to

     • thomas bohn
     • Notavi

     @StryderNotavi @tehabe @danwentzel It is clear for me from seeing this post all over the internet that the point was not clearly made, much less clearly understood.

     Lots of people respond to it like "that's right, 15-minute cities are an elitist project that does nothing for normal people, just abandon it", which means it just fueled a misunderstanding. Wording matters.

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     Notavi (strydernotavi@aus.social)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Apr-2023 11:13:36 JST Notavi

     in reply to

     • clacke
     • thomas bohn

     @clacke @tehabe @danwentzel I'd be inclined to call that a distinction without a difference.

     The point was made and clearly understood. Quibbling about semantics is just pointless pedantry.

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     ms_xenophora 🐚 (xenophora@mastodon.art)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Apr-2023 13:41:36 JST ms_xenophora 🐚

     in reply to

     • clacke
     • Baloo Uriza

     @BalooUriza @clacke @danwentzel

     A few points to B.C. for being on record as "A born-again Pagan," though.

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     Baloo Uriza (baloouriza@social.tulsa.ok.us)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Apr-2023 13:41:38 JST Baloo Uriza

     in reply to

     • ms_xenophora 🐚
     • clacke

     @xenophora Neil Goldschmidt??? Eeeh, that's debatable. Usually hear it as Bud Clark. Neil Goldschmidt got light rail going, sure, but he was the start of the trend of giving businesses low wages and no property taxes in order to locate there.

     @clacke @danwentzel

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     ms_xenophora 🐚 (xenophora@mastodon.art)'s status on Wednesday, 12-Apr-2023 13:41:39 JST ms_xenophora 🐚

     in reply to

     • clacke
     • Baloo Uriza

     @BalooUriza @clacke @danwentzel

     I think it says a lot that the "Father" of "saving" PDX's downtown (Neil Goldschmidt) was... well, look it up if you must. It's ugly as all get-out. :/

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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Monday, 05-Feb-2024 08:49:21 JST clacke

     in reply to

     • Toran Shaw

     @toran Oh, sorry then. I was trying to assume you were sincerely agreeing with the post. I try not to assume sarcasm even when it seems obvious.

     The post is in favor of 15-minute city planning and warns against watered-down implementations that benefit only the privileged.

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     Toran Shaw (toran@pkm.social)'s status on Monday, 05-Feb-2024 08:49:22 JST Toran Shaw

     in reply to

     • clacke

     @clacke @danwentzel no, the concept of 15 minute cities.

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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Monday, 05-Feb-2024 08:49:23 JST clacke

     in reply to

     • Toran Shaw

     @toran Are you referring to housing prices?

     @danwentzel

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     Toran Shaw (toran@pkm.social)'s status on Monday, 05-Feb-2024 08:49:26 JST Toran Shaw

     in reply to

     @danwentzel agreed, as anything that sets out to deliberately restrict people's freedom of movement, is a bad idea.

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     scott f (scott@carfree.city)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 00:55:00 JST scott f

     in reply to

     @danwentzel I love this quote. May I ask who Gareth Klieber is and where they said it?

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     clacke (clacke@libranet.de)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 00:55:00 JST clacke

     in reply to

     • scott f

     @scott Gareth Klieber is a random contributor to the fb group "New Urbanist Memes for Transport-Oriented Teens" ("NUMTOT"), and posted it there on April 5th, 2023.

     @danwentzel