For some reason the account @TTOR came up as "This account has been hidden by moderators" (or similar words) and "click to see it anyway". It's on our own servers and so was a bit strange.

I don't know why it's hidden or what basis it was hidden - any light on that #Qoto / @freemo ?

I can confirm somewhat the content is a legit and person genuine in making their stuff (bible etc involved)...

@freemo @Bag
@customdesigned
I need explaining to about 2nd (top right) picture, which I assume is 'left' politics person pushing 'middle' politics person into 'right' politics person's side...

Because I don't understand what the pushing part is (or more examples of that as a metaphor) as that in the picture is physical and politics is not as clear as that... am I correct?

(So it's a metaphor for rejection - but in which ways possible?)

To you the reader / @freemo / #QOTO. It is our personalities and reasons for being that keep us going...

Picture is edited from a Workbook PDF about #Care and #Caring #Revolution (which I'm trying to merge more into workflows / life itself)

#PDF info of Workbook below if interested:

📖 Let This Radicalize You 97Mb PDF

➡️ Download page = https://www.haymarketbooks.org/books/1922-let-this-radicalize-you?ref=lifeisasacredtext.com

➡️ Download (Direct):
https://www.haymarketbooks.org/pdfs/25

@freemo @invidious In short, I still don't understand why #Freemo specifically and others don't invest in people more directly to get the best out of them or make the biggest change...

They obviously feel it / talk about it often enough and the related thoughts online which confirm that.

But I quote Freemo again using the 💬 symbol below.

The quote was part of this thread which jumps some topics and is not needed to read it all - the gist is this question why:

- Why #projects of more a better #ratio and #personal #development and #social movement are not done at all more personally when people obviously see and feel how useful it is to mentor people in various ways (not just all-in mentorship but dedicated #friendships #free #service etc as a related social movement (between people also and not just #Tech) ? ❓

Specifically this quote below is what I mean (in a non-attacking and respected way) - but why Freemo and others perfectly suited who do believe just somehow *don't invest* in people or doing less the direct thing and go for more commercial tech etc things - it just PUZZLES ME since commercial things rarely increase the personal understanding or love or trust in others when it's mostly "just business" between them... and anyway they have done that so could do a bit of something else or hand it off to others as a test...

#Quote Freemo:
💬 :freemo: "I agree that to really improve #society it requires one on one #care, #help, and #attention between people.

The only thing to keep in mind is QOTO, and the greater #nonprofit around it, has a mission that has always been very STEM oriented. "

So you see paragraph 1 and 2 said in that same ARE quite paradoxical and even opposites cutting off possibility almost of something non-tech (of course the quote is a narrow quote) but also keep in mind I seen more and have asked Freemo but a branch-off or tangent of a another type with more people focus or orientation doesn't seem to happen naturally (even as a compliment to existing projects under my own measurable results). Why still no investment (Time, money, mind power..) same as anything tested since it would cost very little of each and just to see what happens under the QOTO 'stamp of approval' to give it the #attention it need to start and see what happens (again measurable by peoples reactions / experience) .

Please forget my longer writings in this thread (which is not needed),,,

Just on the basis of this text... why not try yourself or enable me / others, under your minor watch to allow something small-scale to use a bit of your backing and existing respect as a kickstarter to give it a chance?

Just see what happens and #grow 'something' (grow people / better mentality potentially etc)

Thanks as always #Freemo
and any #conscious people out there...

We do need something else other better social orientated / progressive #movements,... rather than same Tech or company #progression (#aggression)...

@freemo @chrismarkevich I think it is a problem (if you really mean originally near-0 problems from it) because of what is related to wealth are just too MANY as I see it below:

Some may start good or seem giving but many start to damage or have limits / go cross the line.

Thanks for your thoughts on those main points with ➡️

So some of those elements and extensions below are listed that surpass good (again even starting out as good quickly by design go bad with or with awareness) which are the points are around:

➡️ material extraction / earth's limits related to wealth #oil #land whatever

➡️ geo-political relativity is inevitable (can't have land etc with disruptions) which eventually wealth funds as war problems even if you didn't mean it.

➡️ tax related to wealth inequality funding States / power that naturally corrupts / is less humble (and many companies might pay very little 1% tax whereas people pay 50%+ directly if not indirectly which is unfair - we should all be living it up easy !)

➡️ #economical #war (#wealrth inequality creates feelings / encourages more control / take overs / monopolies etc)

➡️ the #ignorance which buying / selling automatically embeds (makes far too easy as any most 'wealth') and encourages naturally a short way but from longer #hidden damage-chains more than understanding things a bit more by not using it and less importing it... and then having choice in being 'born into it' eventually means losing common sense and morality and skill as even more embedded and detached responsibility as #wealth / #externalization / distance itself becomes increasingly more.

➡️ just using banks - not cool - having wealth transacted and stored with those types of #cold people and it's false #economics.

In my book the re-lending of this kind of wealth overnight (as the main type of #wealth let's say) dilutes all money (as man-made infinite numbers of "#growth" rather than actually planetary and #social measurements).

Banks as momentary positive numbers in exchange for negatives long term (Debt / #Negative society / #treadmill society as result)

So my storage of wealth = more debt and make things dilute faster. Hence why people kept it under their mattress and effectively so as in banks has only gets worse apart from 'safe keeping of it'

#War of course provided by banks if most wealth needs storing "safely" (again to re-#loan it to other behind your back).

Again other wealth but consider just #banks as 1 #hornets nest... and

➡️ If it's not geared towards Sharing then it's bad. #Privatization / #Gentrification / raising the bar always makes it a losing and inevitable power things as inequality with these #problems above - almost total control on people individual life itself (no #food or #shelter).

Quality of life can be that much better for poor people as modern times are based on using / leveraging the poor people or even countries for the upper class / authorities #ultimatums (not just 1 but continual) else face #death /#turmoil... That is how wealth #inequality works more I think that what you indicated as almost nothing...

Your next post is a bit confusing or confirming as mentions #unfair #advantage - I believe that's the whole point and existence of it or came to be at least..

➡️ Even highly #competitive #markets are bad / too #hyperactive / duplicative / exhausting in all this as material or #society even if seemingly 'giving' (damaging #planet / #people / being# ignorant overall).

Thanks for your thoughts on those main points with ➡️

@freemo What do you think about you publishing it and saying:

- which servers we block
- which servers you know blocking QOTO

This info is good for existing users and those signing up to know.

Could be in #QOTO about page or a blocking page where it says a list (even if not updated often) as a disclaimer instead of me having mixed feelings trying to work it out.

I know I've sent messages but got nothing back which is like weeks/month of delays.

If serious about this Fediverse stuff and not wanting to join Facebook instead or whatever because at least that works, I think this works with saying to everyone to know at least.

#QOTOBlocking

No tool is needed as you know from doing any blocking yourself or from discovery of your users reporting back messages not getting through.

Just listed on a page somewhere.

@freemo #QOTO #Block #suggestion / #question / #request

Is it possible for #blocked servers to be marked visually in the #UI?

Another way could be like an email responder) so if I send a message to someone that is blocked then I get a message back?

But just something on screen might be much better to see what's what when sending or even before...

For better clarity it would be good to see if people don't physically see it before sending...

=============
MORE ABOUT WHY
=============

I'm doing social change messages (Public and DM) I so I would like to distinguish between those who can and can't see me or server(s) that don't let us communicate.

To have an icon, colour, message would be great. Thanks

#QOTOBlocking ⭐ 🔖 ⚪ ⚫ 🔴 🚥 🚥 🚦 🚥 🚥 🔖 ⭐

@freemo

1 ➡️ Hmm... Wasn't as immediately obvious or as straight-forward as I thought.

And like you said people many have got the wrong idea and left
- so this is a game-changer for me... and may have been for others if they knew more real testing and your few stats mentioned approximately.

Good it was tested somewhat by you which I trust... and perhaps people have to accept pot of gold doesn't exist anywhere unless we create a hive of activity.

2 ➡️ About "mainstream" the word ...

Mainstream (or one type of meaning of it) could be considered what's listed on https://joinmastodon.org -

...inferring (correctly in some way and not) that what people see there are the main servers and perhaps user numbers signing up _comes from_ that "main" supported list... (I've seen a few list but not the official or recommended https://joinmastodon.org - which I think would be great to have QOTO on as before to represent (that's how I found QOTO and like it's features)...

though QOTO still exists without
- not sure if it's clear to others.

3 ➡️ I wonder how else people would find QOTO unless heard / referred / recommended or saw QOTO users boosted from other users to switch...

4 ➡️ I'm adding #QOTO as hashtag here as it's really good to hear this anyway-

but this info could go in one FAQ post about blocking (without the gargron politics) or even something regular to counter this behaviour of leaving like regular reminder / FYI of things covered before saying how #blocking by others is actually not that big of a deal and how you've tested it etc.

Educate people as your work and rest happens itself (again I see this as the job of any server and to KEEP DOING as any instance's program). Going to due on my sword on that :ms_broadsword: ⚱️ ⚰️

If you copied and pasted it to your own pages you could be one link around where you talk about blocking there as related... instead of just Nazi's or Gargron stuff - just deflect / show it actually doesn't matter even if slightly would be slightly more signups on official website.

Maybe hashtag like #QOTOBlocking (guess this is there now) could prep and collect it and we can always revise the hashtag or your website.

I'm was more torn about this before you said that. I can also have more accounts too and link them... but your info was crucial in my perspective realising "all ways a futile unless you make it yourself since mostly #p2p ironically doesn't exist manually here or organised" and spreading *this* to others if ever mentioned about QOTO or spreading better ways between people (dare I say a movement!).

Without these kinds of talking about it, investing in / by users, people would hardly know and therefore get wrong ideas and be left to themselves (quite normal) which is costly to you and the aims of QOTO (which I would change it to something more ACTIVE and *attacking* in education) -

Now I'm the one more pestering / attacking you and others but as a reflection of existing things not always existing or others not doing much work here (1 way posting about tech) and in my realm the cross-pollinated reasons, sharing dreams and factors would be stronger and said in passing with FOSS and STEM and reasons like you've mentioned come out sooner.

Again peer to peer conversation needed in order to _build_ (your existing efforts with me AND somehow seeding or attaching more people to each other as we go like a mesh)

It would be called "retainment" also if I was your communications / HR officer 😃 or other some such title

3 ➡️ For testing followers I would say comparing your account here to a normal account elsewhere might have some main factors that are not proportional like:

a) declaring your creator of QOTO instead of using random / less anonym name helps get followers... more anonymity les follower
(it's chicken and egg sometimes for usefulness and future privacy but for people like you name is everything and worth trust even though any doctors could be bad people - but I accept names and titles help others in their head and accept others without these more state / old ways of thinking

FreeSchool for example as a name I know is + / - but my work should work more than anything / people need to start to trust that more than state with time even though I could fake a name...

b) more developed profile - more history and posts might help people follow...

but great to know you tested it.

4 ➡️ I still would like to use your own position in "power" or status to take risks on other users and QOTO behalf if not assign me someone else (like to trust me while not trusting me completely) and mutually get on with QOTO stronger / stretch arms and roots out...

5 ➡️ But for now I wait and see if you have any points from the previous 10 in the post before (of which most are skippable or first lines indicate the contents of that point)

Good stuff again. Hope others see it

6 ➡️ People reading this might realise:

it's never going to be active here or there UNLESS they / WE make it / do something along the lines I mention 1-to-1
Then 1-to-many happen and doubling / Albert Bartlett ...

and we collect all these great users with whatever online name as long as the work is good!

7 ➡️ Podcast via https://vocaroo.com notes whenever people feel still feelings like a good idea - maybe an edited roundup of anonymous people as podcast from one-way voice notes you or others send me and I mix up with my own sub-thoughts and see what people think (it gets people interested). But eh we'll see...

⭐ <--- freemo

@freemo @invidious And for the quotes returned, yes good quotes
thanks.

That's the TLDR.

Biggest thought / idea:

💰 We pay people and employees to talk more about it all ?!! (seriously, more of a breakthrough idea than all the above!) 💰

Could you offer some money for someone's 15min audio recording that we delete after taking text notes from?

===================

The rest you can read as 1st lines of each arrow points or not at all:

1 ➡️ experimental question

As a mini-idea you could ask me questions or topics that is important to you or your people, any problems or relationship issues in your life *just* to see if I could record some audio for myself and work on it or think how it would work as 'work'

(even if I don't record some sort of "demand" or "need" seems to help if not a 'freestyling' a kind of exploration.

This half-need could help me answer something for me or even others to answer it themselves - almost the QOTO acronym.

YOU CAN END HERE /

/ THAT'S THE 2ND TLDR

➡️ 2... 3... etc below is more about the quotes and other stuff related to you personally having strong relativity but somehow not a practical way to output / merge somehow. But largely I see experimenting or sending me /random being good so it's not just me talking but you sending me from your needs / exploration / tests...

2 ➡️ The picture in my post was indeed that same common phrase, as you said popularly attributed to Edmund Burke, but I modified it to be more specific as a daily thing people need to do or else in my eyes the bad work starts / other practices and irresponsibility grows more.

Maybe literally this is life now happening that same way in our analysis here I guess of your life somewhat. You agree, want for, but don't do one-to-one's / have a way yet to achieve the other things less FOSS / STEM (which I think it makes it stronger coming around the people circle again).
⬆️ :thumbsup_hmn_h2: ⬅️ this seems to match theory strongly and achieve better everything / connectivity

3 ➡️ Exploring people or Conflict could be my role too but too late and too serious perhaps.

Projects and people have conflicts all the time since a lot is largely based on feelings, misconceptions, motivations etc leading to collapse in the end.
Someone to listen, even say the wrong thing and decide "no this" without it being the wrong person to do it with (a stranger sometimes).

But still doing things before conflicts makes better sense as learning and easier prevention.

4 ➡️ Not saying the opposites as you're doing incredibly bad but if FOSS, STEM work itself doesn't integrate or self-check others often, then <shrug> what kind of Freemo's and Musk's do we expect?

Eventually people acting with machines mostly end up in a kind of fascism or binary thing (as machines not people equations) even if they are not the cause or the centre of it - what's left without people? It's the inaction too of their personal beliefs common in all life today that adds or doesn't add up after work which many people find out after quitting and only stay to have 'colleagues'.

⬇️ Another way to say it

Good is not good if becomes a passive or theoretical thing more that actual practice / spreading of it.

So even if not daily - once a week as a quick feedback session would be good. Work on differences / enjoy them.

If it wasn't for privacy and trust listening to people recording themselves online I would sift through an audio recorded via https://vocaroo.com/ link (fairly private or non-public links) what do you think or this site? ❓

Would be fun for me typing up any gems of feedback or points for others to help them develop things / themselves! (could be anonymous or otherwise). Main thing being a voice says it better.

💡 If you had any audio notes or long sermons in the past I'd try typing them up and learning from them at the same time (have done if for a lot of YouTube videos)

5 ➡️ So in my eyes the conclusion as a list for you seemed to be that even finding you as a "BEST CASE" SCENARIO + QOTO as a forum it's still strangely not enough;

⏺️ even with your work,
⏺️ abilities,
⏺️ the non-profit and
⏺️ QOTO,
⏺️ your own strong personal thoughts about society improving and supporting things

⭐ So all that alignment in your life - it's not enough yet somehow. I feel like I've found a popular human anomaly or algorithm which if I could figure out would unlock things in others and allow them to express / work on things in their own way too.

Right now, somehow... nothing shouts at us to try... other than text / voice recordings (I also have low ping or intermittent making even live audio not possible so do offline recording and send via https://vocaroo.com/ )

6 ➡️ When you said "if you ever do it" then you would support me? ....it's like "Yeah I am doing / trying / doing it daily with others!... and it's on your own QOTO pages !)... :)

It is a bit bizarre my dear fellow :) while accepting the end product isn't there other than people interacting on what they want...

I admit a bit of blind faith / fun and experimenting is needed unless we find that one thing to leverage from my time and will-power in these things / post.

:nes_fire: #FreeSchool ! :nes_fire:

7 ➡️ You are also supporting me by reading this so all is far from lost... but practical small tests are harder sometimes - writing too much too easy.

Must be a good way of finding out a reasoned way if not personal text and audio recordings. Must be some way that's practical but not all in FOSS or STEM necessarily.

Just too many things seem to match that list for you, listed with lots of ⏺️'s above.

8 ➡️ The above is what I'm facing - though I'm giving space to us to finding and experimenting...

So let's see how that goes because this is me doing it now...

Not giving up. But not sure of the name or way yet other than 'improve society' via one-to-one's to help people grow and find others... and many of my CW titles posts that give inspiration or tail to follow.

9 ➡️ Imagine people believe, see how it would work better, want for it, yet don't do it as a focus or somewhere along the way.

Perhaps too many dangers in trusting...

Communicationseems good (not always live) but talking about something or one's self or others using a 1 touch recorder maybe too dangerous.
https://vocaroo.com/ seems an all-in-one solution but I admit that needs trust tpp or something to prevent abuse.

I'd be happy for people to send me something - but perhaps needs a good reason or question to start it off and ping pong audio recordings between us (I can't do Matrix for a few reasons)...

Perhaps ask me a question or topic to talk related to people problems or relationship issues and I'll see theoretically about something.

Audio could even be one way messages (me only doing voice) and for people to listen to me whenever they want and not even reply! Lol... But that's what I have with text so who knows if that's much better!

Let it sit on it - unless any points above ring home 🔔 even as a "yeah good point but not sure why we;re not doing more of this kind of stuff in society...."

10 ➡️ 💰 Maybe money could be a legit entry point for people's time and opinions if not more willingly volunteered !) 💰 💰

💰 We pay people and employees to talk more about it all ?!! (seriously, more of a breakthrough idea than all the above!) 💰

I could filter feelings / transcript key points and then delete audio. It's interaction and some values tested from it at least.

Could you offer some money for someone's 15min audio recording that we delete after taking text notes from?

@freemo @invidious Feel free to suggest any other images for this post that might suit it better or any opinion about the existing image if it does not say my post's message well enough...

and I'll change it on next revision...

Thanks again all.

Losing #evolutionary #advantage, #animals

💬 "Its common for animals to loose a capability as an evolutionary advantage. Basically if it isnt benefiting you much then you are wasting energy maintaining the systems for it, so if flying isnt worth the cost it could be lost."

#Quote @freemo

Post: https://qoto.org/@freemo/113787581836632764

💬 MY COMMENT:
I feel like this is how it is with humans - no longer able to calculate or limit how much they are spending/ And then eventually give all their power away to be 'whatever they say it is'.

@freemo @rastinza WOW this is most intriguing and pleasantly disturbing... the average person has little-to-no chance other than umbrella term but I feel a bit of progress was made... and will put some comments below most for Rastinza:

1/ capitalism and free market can or cannot be the same thing?

➡️ I would say yes when merged and even if separate to start with becomes capitalism by nature of bringing together and if they are not mutually exclusive together and not very far being able to inter-operate together.

2/ Free Market variant is hard to achieve on it's own?

➡️ I agree it may be unachievable unless a lot of things are not present. And if they are present ruins Free Market and only flavours a bit whatever you try add it to.

3/ Oxford dictionary definition seems what the average person and most would agree with...

➡️ it mentions "for profit" but not all short definitions elsewhere mention profit and interestingly can be "...private ownership of capital" so using the word "capital" itself and no mention of profit... not sure if this is a clue but I'm guessing ownership of capital (which is wealth, money, business, human resources, economic value) perhaps always leads to profit even if occasionally you don't have to or don't have it in mind as the main thing. You kinda have to make profit / shift surpluses to yourself of some kind even if it's not money.

❓ Can you have capitalism without profit... I guess depending on which flavour but most are for-profit it seems and YOU MUST profit else you don't have most types of capitalism or any capital.

❓ If above is true, does it suggest all #equality is ruined by capitalism itself - directly or eventually from the system forcing or being of nature towards profit as the main (hoarding / accumulating wealth, suckign energy of the people, controlling things, power-struggles, dog-eat-dog companies / states etc even if not distinctly mentioned in short descriptions).

2/ #Plutocracy might not be the best from all this - true, but does achieve two things!

🔴 Gets people to look up the word!
🔴 Makes it simple as 'rich' even though any democratic part in the world takes a hit usnig this word and assumes it's almost *all* rich people (which actually I think it *almost* is !!!!)

⬆️ It would be about the rich almost from way back in time if a few almost-aesthic things collapsed again (which were only a faceade of 'democracy perhaps). Since all existence of life may be based on those things of Kings etc, it seems history is overwhelmingly more than people "understanding" things or doing any democratic process (until things get too extreme and then something is done about it, but that's not democratic always either).
So I feel it's more top level / wealthy again and aesthetics of which rich person or which liar you get 'democratically'... today is all built on those things and just becoming mini-games within that? ❓
Not trying to ruin your version but coming from kings, families with wealth, land, strong bonds, technology being decisive... not sure how we can undo all that or not continue it in genuine "democratic" way. Honestly most people couldn't do it even if their life depended on it and that's part of why we're here I'm very very sure of that having tried / tested people personally! Just like working with dud people when you come down to talking 10+minutes and though they live and seem normal / able people. Just towing the line mainly. (which is why I want to change people's communication ability more than code or increase tech for the same things to happen between unhappy / uneducated . unloving people).

⚫ But true the rich don't have direct political power I guess, though even today it's seemingly proving even less needed, so perhaps they still indirectly buy power, talk betwee themselves, buy people of various kinds and that almost super-seeds / overwrites public and gets re-labelled at various points down the line even after any public or democraticc victory (gets er-done or undone later and we see it's just encroaching suffocating life). Even if for a while seems public gets there way, it's done behind back again or reworked later, oil pipeline is re-opened or just made where protest will be less.

And the hand can be put on should on anyone in hierarchy ...
And we see people / parents / teachers doing it despite the logic of that decision made by their supervisor, higher rank- unless they want to die by the sword of morality / staying true to themselves.

4/ Rastinza you mentioned "state capitalism" but I mentioned "state monopoly" capitalism - so just making sure because I think you *can* have capitalism in the popular sense where states govern it as a monopoly or main controlling party but it's not free market - just a kind of revolving door or meme picture of choice of doors leading back to the same things. Limited choice let's say.

5/ Absolutely disagree with this paragraph below

You said "you don't have a bunch of people deciding what the economy should produce according to how much profit they can make, but rather politicians and economists taking decisions according to what they feel is better for the nation."

⬆️ That sounds really naive - it's almost all for profit!! And seems ignoring everything is State controlled and regulated, to the extent that yes I feel and see by design State decides where they are going, NOT the politician and economist ➡️ "for the better of the nation" ⬅️ 😃

Because they might not know what's best, and anyway not able to overrule it even if they tried or had all the evidence otherwise.
Politicians and economists are seemingly purely there to follow the main stream of thought / wil from top and provide commentary like an employee - to follow mostly - yes a few rogues out there but nothing at all for changing the #system.
Systems are not there to change themselves generally 😃 but cut out all that caring or detail stuff and get the booty / cash !

We see how often even the truth gets them / us, how far all the evidence out there gets.
State has final say (even if wrong - they determine the logic and often it's not logical and cruel actually to maintain power!). It owns all the puppets by nature of keeping them 'alive', and changes those values to kill them / die them off, or incentivizes the bullies and stronger folks (even academics and brains), punishes according to whatever thinking suits them more NOT PEOPLE!
So probably talks between themselves happen a lot and likely is that they are there to their self-given jobs alive ETC! NOT FOR BENEFIT OF ANY "NATION" feeling of that's long gone, BUT TO EXTRACT FROM IT! (that's their "business" model and not there to provide even people things to do and have a "pleasant life" among themselves!). No way.

And if you didn't see how disposable and crushing all that is / has been then I'm not sure how to say more. We're only there because they might need us and as soon as we're not we'll be cut off / phased out / exterminated, replaced by a machine. Why pay for excess humans?

That whole nation thing gives me the idea that people are doing it because they care or care more about nation than taking care of themselves.

Pretty sure also every nation has lost it's identity and culture also and it's just like similar sports teams that come together like #gladiators and gladiator-it-out leaving not much useful at the end but profits of one or the other.

Hope you can give me the arrow where I'm wrong but people doing it for people when on team "State" is like you think the job of politicians and economists (to do things almost *to* other rather than with them) is going to really take into consideration what they think and restore this world into cat-loving nature place with less money and not-for-profit give-it-to-the-children's-future ways!

Ok that's long and perhaps a bit of a sub-point but it's still about those ruling us... are if they going to actually give it back to us.. lol...

Is interesting. Thanks in advance.

@rastinza @freemo Sorry for delay, post didn't show up in my notification or I missed it.

TLDR = see end paragraph!

1/ ✔️ So yes Rastinza I too was having these thoughts...

... though I am sure not completely in agreeing with you mostly because of your first line because we were writing it as Capitalism (Free Market)... which is the bracketed version and maybe it's contradiction as both are part of the same thing AND each can also be separate in it's own way.

The brackets shows it is a subtype (or economic policy as you say) and written as: Capitalism (Free Market OR ANY SUBTYPE) and maybe both can imply it's on way to be applied to things too...

Overall seems both is use in a variety of ways and all have their sub variants or mix of practices within other big headers as a 'way of doing things' and not just 1 thing...

2/ I realised as Freemo was talking tht he declared along the way 1 sub-type of Capitalism was the focus but initially / to start with it was first more about how *other people* use the word alone as "Capitalism" incorrectly - so if other people do not state it or mean the free market type, (let's say they mean "State monopoly" type capitalism or similar -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_monopoly_capitalism

then they are more likely correct IF many more mean this sub-types or infer things of that Capitalism umbrella topic that covers those bad things commonly people mean (to do with the rich ruling, unfair possession, state interventions to keep it unfair, oligarchy etc)...

So perhaps it's generally accepted to mean this type more than any other... and I would accept people are less wrong if a majority means things whatever way they mean it IF they use it enough and assume between them which one they (especially if the other nuances are a bit niche / never learnt and nearly non-existent to them). So if people don't declare it then it might not be (Free Market) and as Freemo confirmed we don't have that type today so could suit most all people who say it and be correct about that (accidentally correct or not!)...

So the type of Capitalism is important of course but most people who don't declare subtype might agree on similar things (which might not know until we asked them) but generally in the State monopoly category or oligarchy / Techno-capitalism ...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocapitalism

...and similar variants of power over people or #profit over people... ?

(I just made this up but from hearing it often elsewhere).

3/ Which is why I liked the word #Plutocracy instead of Capitalism...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy

...because as it's a totally different word! HA 😃

CONCLUSION
⚫ 1 Capitalism has many types
⚫ 2 Use Plutocracy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy

#Capitalism Explained...

#Quotes from @freemo conversations in digestible bullet points...

💬 ✒️ Capitalism (free markets), in it's correct meaning, is not a rule so much as an ideological guideline, and in reality should be in a #mix of many things, where #capitalism is only an #influence of *some* things (not all).

💬 ✒️ We don't live in a country that is a pure capitalism, or even much of a capitalism at all...
Right now we don't have free markets, and that's the point.

💬 ✒️ Not only is it not a free market, but it is quite far away from being one.

All-in- version...

💬 ✒️ We also shouldn't strive for capitalism (free markets) as the default, it's not a rule so much as an ideological guideline, and the reality should be a mix of many things, where capitalism is only an influence.

=====================
3 Capitalism (free markets) Tips:
=====================

☑️ is a way of doing things as a guideline - and not for everything to be done in this way.

☑️ Capitalism isn't a binary word to say government is or isn't Capitalism since it's mixed.

☑️ #Plutocracy probably as better word.

#Plutocracy as a best word to replace Capitalism maybe.

Capitalism perhaps does not mention the rich explicitly -
specifically the rich is perhaps more what people mean sometimes! 💰 🤑

(Plutocracy = #political #system governed by the #wealthy people)

Perhaps "Capital" in the word also helps people not see or assume centralization rather than the many versions, including Free Market version which is important next to the word as a kind of sub-type of it"

🔗 Capitalism (free markets)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market

💬 #Capitalism means...
"markets are free, meaning everyone has the same amount of power in the market, no one can game the system"

#Quote by @freemo
Post: https://qoto.org/@freemo/113768931586330894

💬 My comment:
Typically "Capitalism" seems to be said in public to mean "money rules and everyone is driven by greed",
... when in reality it means something else according to #Freemo that I'm exploring / currently trying to re-learn.

Initially I think it's both things or many things since there is so much nuance of Capitalism and something evolving even from the basic definition. It seems it's not just 1 solid dictionary or Wikipedia definition - it's many pages! Again many nuances or ways doesn't seem to help although in a static moment away from today I get parts of it

💖 ➡️ FEELINGS VS. LOGIC... ⬅️ 💔
I have massive #feelings and crossed wires about "Capitalism" ⚔️ and below I list some of those feelings bullet pointed with 🔴

"Capitalism" is like my brain in a skipping CD 💿 or Vinyl Record 🔴 that stays in the same track whenever you try play it or talk about a topic... I might understand some logic but can't agree with much of it's perception or 'who-knows-who' that made it (many).

Looking at the page "Free-Market Capitalism" page makes me think to myself:

💬 "What do I actually agree with here? Anything?
Answer: Not much! Have to find something I can agree with!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market

Check how you feel compared to how I feel (disclaimer: I might still not 'get it' but this is how I feel)...

🔴 Selling / Re-selling the planet 🌏 ? ❌ Na. ❌

That's like an illegal operation or incompatible way of looking it it sometimes. What's a beautiful bird worth?
For people "trying" to convert to numbers (deliberately fucking things like money-changer or innocently trying to manage things) it's totally like difference sciences and false measurement (even without assuming #money and f-ing #banks are just to tax and skim off people behind their backs and re-loan / dilute the money behind our backs too, devaluing it at their benefit!). WTF!
More numbers / more debt?

🔴 Owning things - should anyone own things more than apportioning it to the next person / generation - ok a piece of paper for saying that - but a buying complicated pieces of paper as a program or scheme to enrich the system again (taz) / cheating people out of shelter and the future eventually? (No! Too risky even to consider)

🔴 Pricing people labour / Future children priced? Can it ever be fair? Can't we just accept people and almost hope they do for the love of things?

Despite me not have whole answer for this either - just not selling our self either falsely/arbitrarily and trying to falsely value all different arts which banks and state have no care about (dying artists constantly). Either as numbers or anything more than caring for it and allowing the education of that... ?
And the 10 chickens / children have feelings and not just the number 10 to kill and use from them throw away.
Much more than numbers please. Giving life AND love (something often not mentioned in growing life.) Selling is mainly like a empty vehicle to constantly find something to empty and fill again without care and encourages lack of quality and more physical moving things more than a meta look.
What about love as the process too - why not that?

🔴 "competitive markets", a price system?
Doesn't it end all the same bad way and never stays how it was intended to start?

🔴 "exchange of rights (cf. ownership) of services and goods" kind of ok but can't we keep things more often rather than commodifying it to commercialise it - just nice little homes and small economy with big serving them in it's own small / less chemical crap ways.

🔴 "Markets" has so much variation / too much - renders this whole definition of free-market useless on first look / too open to interpretation and change.

🔴 Economics - a terrible word perhaps from the perspective of who is taking care of the land / planet and people (government) who's job is really care of itself and use people as batteries which are disposable ? Governments that took the land but don't really share it to future generations and just want more bad and even increasingly looking to take more land !
(how it got to this point was by stealing or conquering it so why continue that? Who wants to forever re-sell it for more and more never-ending problems with it, not letting people actually inherit it)

=====================
OK THAT'S ENOUGH
...FOR NOW!
=====================

SO YEAH I'm fighting off the same Capitalism feeling that I get tempted back into think, like a skipping CD 💿 or Vinyl Record 🔴 that stays in the same track whenever you try play it or talk about a topic...
Not fun and slipping into the same feeling for what seems 100% an over-flexible definition for "#FreeMarket Capitalism" which of course encourages people to take any part they want from it - since it's ALL OF IT!!

If we are to use words indeed to think they mean 1-10 things that would be great, just not #meaning 100 things will any #nuances you like!!!

(I will continue learning today and seems to come up often with many people on this hashtag!) 😃 😅

@freemo I seem to get a lot of what is said or written instantly...

but lose it the very moment it comes to the scope or reality of Capitalism's role in life *today* or say last 100 years (Industrial Revolution being early 1900's perhaps).

So...
❓ Are we in a period of Capitalism?

❓ How does it successfully work to its own definition within the today or be seen clearly in the past on larger scale?

Example:
You mention the "me and you" example of doing a trade without rules and force- PERFECT- But the reality today is the opposite - there are rules and force beyond the 1 time deal and anything more regular between us is wanting to be regulated or punished (basically)... or within more people difficult.

Which is why the public might miss how it works and perhaps in a mixed system which part is or isn't Capitalism.

So seeking clarity on that with some very obvious questions helps see what it is (or is not).

❓ So are we in Capitalism?

The sense of Free-Market in small sense seems to make sense, but confuses me after any of the larger cases beyond cold definitions - So anything trying for more than theory or more than small scope is troublesome. It's almost like

❓ How can Capitalism not involve all these other extended things, because it seems quite impractical or non-existent without them.

For example - If you look at Free Market pages or almost anywhere for description (ok I didn't look everywhere but feel free to give examples) - it seems Capitalism NEEDS to involve all these other extended things more than just the basic theory and extends into talking about a litter of things,

like:

⏺️ **owners** of wealth,
⏺️ **property** or production ability in capital and **financial** markets
⏺️ maybe some government intervention (although not planning to start out that way so much it 'can' involve it).

So if financial markets are relative those Capitalistic things seem it seems it is or touches on things like:

⏺️ Stock markets,
⏺️ Commodity markets,
⏺️ Money markets
⏺️ Derivatives markets,
⏺️ Futures markets,
⏺️ Interbank lending market (#Banks etc)

Endlessly touching on more on more things (or else rendering itself impractical almost).

This seems to mean any scope outside of me and you, or in the context for today is not really possible and always need all these satellite things! 🛰️ 🪐

==========
SUMMARY:

Hope that explains the confusion or loop that is happening.
I feel like I could crack why sooooo many fall back into problems with this by asking.

Any more clarifying examples of what Capitalism is and isn't more than you and I appreciated.

Link below is only reference for reminding myself where we started conversation:
https://qoto.org/@freeschool/113764906931364134

@freemo Cool. So what words do you think I should use for my definition.

And then how to avoid this - I can see myself like a scratched record falling back into it... because I think many others are also not as educated or good with nuances? (kinda funny but if lots of people think it's the same then they can agree incorrectly)

The use of this word is for me to know what I mean and then also for others to know - so it's kind of a vicious cycle! -
Although I am using the word incorrectly / inaccurately, ironically others / we know what I . they mean and share similar dislike in the things I listed along the way in reply to you.

I can see how people might naturally never come out of these proper definitions because the feelings are almost right to them or others (oppression or cheating of some kind, lack of power or some meta way to see it) and even if the words they use are not great we can agree on 'wrong' or 'right' in some way.

So if this is the case how / what can I say better than Capitalism?

Do you have a got to source to differential these things easier or step by step rather than reading Wiki page mass and relying on just my discerning the nuances

(I think this is a really big problem and seem even those 'father' who have spent half their life studying it all STILL they find if hard to differentiate!!!) LOOOOL

I might have to accept my limits and find proper ways - rather than rely on myself to differentiate using the same ways and doing hit and miss methods.

Knowing what it is not is also good like FAQ page with lots of crosses. The conversation we've had saying it's not this, not that, is actually more useful but demands humans work on other humans to get them out of the same old thoughts like 'skipped records' repeating and needing help to switch tracks.

See things as anti-this or pro-that and neutral / unsaid would be good.

So thanks for this talk.

A few questions to wrap is the over question and mini points here so I can continue on a better trajectory and even 'teach' others on a better way to distinguish as a better reference or step by step way. Any ideas?

Thanks!

@freemo @messaroundmarx Interesting. I notice 2 things.

1/ I'm possibly falling into that typical bashing of "Capitalism" maybe because I'm not getting what I want related to the other parts of life I want and responsibility of many systems which Capitalism doesn't seem to help with - at all (at least the Modern kind).

Ideally I'd like to think, involves or implement #Mutual #Cooperation (towards various things), Saving #Nature, Increasing #Commons / #Commoning, #Feelings / #Consent being part of it but not I don't see these words a lot or at all in Capitalism or books. So maybe I blame it or anyone that uses it overly (which I don't think can only be blamed on (people but the design too).

So the name is one thing but also I'm just a bit more concerned / defending what these words ignore / over-write / replace with numbers or mathematical tricks frankly.

YOU CAN SKIP TO 2ND POINT FOR NOW AND NEXT HORIZONTAL LINES...
and come back here if you have the taste for it... above as the main point 1
======================================

Caring about what people think is not just a number for example or free-market. All this 'other stuff' not in systems seems to me actively cutting it out (again said or not said).
And after that many things like Authoritarianism are exactly what you get as result of #MoralFailures or mostly physical / material ways of looking at life / extraction of it etc. There's more than that, hence Capitalism limited (of course but used by people deliberately so for that and evolving to crush people).

❓ Is it possible to have #commons and #caring with Capitalism?
Maybe. But not fully it seems.

❓ Does Capitalism mean banks and debt-based system creates debt mostly first and therefore negative propelled polarity / not positive in the other humans sense? Seems so.

❓ What it is Capitalism heading towards in terms of facilitating religion / beliefs / caring of various kinds never just 1 as a whole number or limited attribute / bigger spectrum of attributes?

Holding *Modern Capitalism* responsible seems relative - or those who are responsible for using it as rolling steam-roller of things

If #Capitalism prefers to ignore or lacks participation on human levels then it can reflect how much it is like a x y or z type system.

Finance or number-looking perspectives are close to #Fascism for me as the whole story is looking at people for profit / pimping / working them without diversity in mind (just for money) and other moral transactions is less there / non-existent. What it means to people locally, nature, seems a bit too encompassing as a system to involves but if we agree people are largely not part of the equation (only material and physical type intellect used once it's gained) then it seem play less of a part in life even though part of it physically.

IF free-market Capitalism involves not caring about or even assume we can do free-market selling the planet then perhaps for me it infers selling people or planet is ok - which seems wrong... at least without a whole other balance...

I'm defending what other people might feel ok with even by their God or just what exists today as a result of leverage to make people work (throttling for maximising gain) and could exist more towards making it free / pre=paid than for any kind of mass profit / screwing people to the wall to work for Capitalism. Imagnie most of the profit could pay for the many.

❓ Is Capitalism part of a rolling class of similar people or positions and keeping their position?

So I'm reviewing those things as "Capitalism" while at the same time it is is all probably asking a bit too much from language when it's a whole bunch of things.

========================================
2ND POINT

2/ At the same time of accepting inaccuracy or differences I feel like it's bad overall and not as neutral as you're talking about - almost 'another' kind of definition or free-market Capitalism definition, which surely exists, but in today's sense I'm not sure it does any more and not as embedded as it is today - so *just* the more static or classical past definition sure, but the practical usage today ( ignoring planetary limits, increasingly number representations NOT representing people properly or planet, animal-lovers, maybe #ClimateChange / #EnvironmentDamage at the expense of a business perspectives that Capitalism might have ( or simply might ignore and not declare as limits, assuming Infinite Growth, taking from other markets ok etc)... Can seem less related to Capitalism and 'maybe' not Capitalism's fault but it's part of how people use it... so it is different today both how it's used and what it is.

Today's version being tied to everything I feel which could frame the classical sense(s) of the word Capitalism differently and is not isolated any more - literally everything is increasingly weaponised FOR Capitalism or 'as' Capitalism itself is evolving and is / or becoming under #Authoritarianism or whatever let's say aggression or over-ruling personal beliefs, territorial eating of other's resources (or many things Capitalism is part of but might seem completely 'optional' to reader of the dictionary). People have and fall into a definite program whichever way it seems you look at it to do a set type of patterns at the expense of almost 'these thing' almost never. Why not? Largely the answer is that it's geared for very different things, not happiness or end-game for future children, it looks upon people and things well almost the same - just a thing to kick around and find sweet spot of demand and supply MINI-GAMES which make a bit of a mockery at the end.

Anyway some robust questions - all that is about caring and not sure how much you're into that.

So...

- Could the definition of Capitalism you had in mind change with time?

- How about if Capitalism is used as a sub-set to Authoritarianism ?
Would repackaging make it different weapon be totally innocent like a trigger for a gun or #mechanism not always for bullets but similar?

A strong repackage of Capitalism or forced-evolution tree (Like most #Linux #servers functioning or treated like an #advertising #farm) makes it a different animal overall and from birth - despite it being ok once as a component on it's own (but also server architecture changing). All these change / renders the definition, relativity and practical implementation different today even if still the same 'basic principle'.

@freemo @messaroundmarx There are 2 quotes here.
I assume it's the 2nd quote mostly about authoritarianism that is mostly the focus...

...which, if so, would you consider authority or authoritarianism as an uncaring (or almost financially-only caring) Bank and State Authority as the kind of dictator(s) or de-facto equivalent (i.e. without you totally using Bank or State then you are a mere nothing deliberately made increasingly conditional, whether they declare themselves as this or that political label.

Those two (or just for the purposes of this reply) are sole rulers and sources of life (or monopoly of it) and soon imprisoning people for non-conforming reasons (more examples of kangeroo #courts / #juries asked to #ignore evidence / terrorism chargers used on Twitter / Mastodon style social people silences and in jail / mothers arrested fpr speaking etc)...

So theoretically or de-facto would you agree Modern #Capitalism (or just today's type of actions and non-action of Banks 🏦 and State 👮 (whatever we call their actions as) is requiring these two authorities and not just the softer or neutral types of Capitalism.

The increasing #ultimatum and #conditional demanding #conforming to (or take it or leave life if you want) makes increasingly everything #illegal or incompatible by default and today's kind of Capitalism is more #punishment orientated...

Capitalism here as a constantly changing or added #restriction / #redefinition which is why we can not just focus on #labels like Authoritarianism but the #behaviour and track #record / #history, as well as what they #finance (#war), how they have things failed constantly in echange for profit / power etc etc, that contribute to similar things...

As part of constant systematic pattern (whatever we call that) and even considering people being #ignorant also (yes), but definitely no change to that model of #business as usual. Namely #tax, #territorial #aggression etc.

And on the other side more positive to humans, today it's hardly about #communication between #state and people, giving power to people, talking about well-being of humans, which I'd include as part of what makes it "Authoritarian style" behaviour also when it's without those components and considerations... would you agree?

Happy New Year by the way :)

Capitalism #Transformation ➡️ #Cooperating #Commons ?

2 #Quotes I liked by @messaroundmarx

#Quote 1
"The most difficult question for a social #transformation will probably be how we change from competing lone warriors to cooperating individuals who are turned towards each other in the knowledge that our own well-being depends on the well-being of our fellow humans."

Post: https://zirk.us/@messaroundmarx/109865775711665644

#Wellbeing #Together #Humans vs #Alone #Individuals #Competing

#Quote 2
"The problem is: Even if a majority realized it, most people couldn't imagine a viable alternative. #Capitalist categories are so deeply internalized in our minds that a non-authoritarian alternative is not conceivable for most of us!"

#Commonism #SystemChange

Post: https://zirk.us/@messaroundmarx/110266395758764932

💬 My added hashtags as comments:

#Change #System vs. #Change #Minds ?

#Alternative #Authoritarian #Alternatives

#Thinking #minority vs.
#Unthinking #majority