Notices by screwlisp (screwtape@mastodon.sdf.org)

@prahou @lanodan @remilia

I would also have accepted just "Cirno has been part of 9front since the Google Code days" as the description text

@aral
sounds good to me, I didn't actually ping KMP yet, so. We can accrue some planned topics over the weekend.
@Codeberg

@aral
Smallnet sounds great, if you want us to collaboratively swat up on some topic prior let me know. The spam attack is important but shouldn't eclipse us.
Otherwise I'm hoping to get KMP to talk about knowledge based stuff in the next few weeks as well, so whichever time and order works for everyone.
@Codeberg

@aral
Would you be able to talk about this happening on the lispy gopher climate (Wed 0 UTC) next week or the week after? (And potentially your projects aside from more attacks against codebergs). If I recall the last time there was a bad attack against codeberg they were quick to resolve it.
@Codeberg

@amszmidt
So I figure either the XDG https://specifications.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/latest/#variables suggests I should use by default put a dir in $HOME/.local/share . But this suggests a program outside of emacs to me, so maybe a working directory inside the mode's directory.
@mousebot @sacha

@amszmidt
I think there is antecedent. Consider slime, elm, eshell. I want to add Sandewall's 'cle' like those. By its nature cle could sit on top of slime (which is why you say it doesn't sound like an emacs mode). cle involves storing stateful changes in copies of a particular directory tree itself.
@mousebot @sacha

@amszmidt
Should I put working-directories inside the mode's directory somewhere, or should I put them in ~/.local/share/software-individuals/ do you think?
@mousebot @sacha

@amszmidt
clone doesn't mean git clone. It means stub from template.
@mousebot @sacha

@amszmidt
Basically slime mode with that inferior lisp is good enough for doing all of Sandewall's software individual stuff, but since the useage is idiomatic, I want to provide obvious shortcuts for stubbing common commands. It's very repetitive put .. get .. def .. add entity .. add kb ...
@mousebot @sacha

@amszmidt
Well, in this case not write text mode.
- clone new "software individual"s into e.g. ~/.emacs.d/elpa/this-mode/leocommunity/* which will be the working directory for software individuals.
- Spawn a new slime repl with inferior-lisp-program as "clisp -E ISO-8859-1 -modern"
- start sandewall's cle (read-line based) interactor inside that/those repls
- automatically insert stuff into those special (renamed, I guess) multiple slime repls.

If you can kinda imagine.

@mousebot @sacha

@mousebot @sacha
Do you two think
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Example-Major-Modes.html
is a reasonable reference for cramming my elisp into one major mode? I was debating looking at Eduardo's eev, though I guess that's mostly minor mode based, or slime, but slime is like saying "I'm going to make my attic be like Valhalla" <_>

@glitzersachen
I do agree that it is a regret that the high level implementation language of the lisp editor, emacs modernly is and has been C rather than lisp.

@mark
you should tag this toot #emacs for more people to enjoy

Terry's point is that rather than being a "dead end" as people would blithely tell him, SHRDLU is actually /exactly/ the kind of computer program that is meaningful to write.
Its behaviour is both deliberate and mindbogglingly complex (barely fitting in Winograd's head). His argument is that each computer program should be as intricate and expansive a contribution to the world as possible at the periphery of the author's ability.

Not get-rich-quick-scheme style learning and crunching.

Argh, I reread Breaking The Complexity Barrier (Again) 1973 and Winograd's still completely right.
It would be nice if:
- we could just run "learning" on a bunch of data, and it would figure everything out without us telling it
- we could just run "crunching" on a bunch of symbols, and it would figure everything out without etc.
but neither of those have an antecedent for being a way things work.

It makes me think I actually have to do the work of using Sandewall's Leonardo System =_=

I can't say I'm happy about it but this implies that currently freecad and linux are humanity's premier contributions to the universe.

Edit:
I guess we can be happy that emacs is also up there. Compilers and languages generally maybe. I think McCLIM should be regarded as an important ongoing success. It's just that rather than McCLIM and emacs being exceptional, anyone belonging to the computer-fanciers-association should be part of contributing something like Sandewall's Leonardo System.

LLMs are in the first class of failures. Transformers - using a feedforward network with attention on terabytes and terabytes of scraped data - is an attempt to get something without contributing a boundary-pushing program (having been allowed by world governments to steal data without recompense, they got it for free).

I actually do consider LLMs to be spooky, even beyond making public vast quantities of private historical emails.

But this is a legal innovation, not a human-authored one.

@dougmerritt

@amszmidt @larsbrinkhoff
You two don't happen to be aware of an intact source for historical SHRDLU? The 90s clisp port, "SHRDLU after suffering a stroke" sounds kind of unappealing.

@dougmerritt Understand Natural Language '72, right?

@ksaj My first guess is that you're doing something annoying like this ->
CL-USER> (defun bar (&aux (y 1))
(+ y (locally (declare (special y)) y)))
BAR
CL-USER> (defparameter y -1)
Y
CL-USER> (bar)
0
CL-USER> (defun bar (&aux (y 1))
(+ y (locally (declare (special y)) y)))
WARNING: redefining COMMON-LISP-USER::BAR in DEFUN
BAR
CL-USER> (bar)
2
I can never get special variables straight.
I'll think tomorrow
@khleedril @amszmidt

@ksaj
in the spirit of obliquely addressing your cleverness, I wrote this version of the same point:

<ignore the fact that the code in this toot worked in some contexts>
@khleedril @amszmidt