@lanodan@Gottox@ariadne even if that was the case it's not right to blame gnome here; their lives would be much easier with just systemd as right now there are two process launch architectures simultaneously maintained (desktops consist of a lot of session-wide processes, and gnome can now either launch them with systemd which means being able to do so cleanly, on-demand, in a supervised manner and with dependencies, or in a crummy "just launch everything and hope it does not crash" way)
@ariadne@Gottox perhaps not blessed by RH for RHEL, but still developed by RH people and driven by fedora
i don't think it's reasonable to expect the developer of the service management system to drive your distro integration; for one it's an entirely different job compared to actually developing the thing, for two it's way too much to do at once
first there needs to be a real initiative and goals, then some initial work, *then* (or during) you come to @ska or whoever for help
@ariadne@Gottox that's not the point, the point is that it was an effort done *within fedora* so they were working on something specific and not just a service manager without any feedback from real world use cases
there is only so much you can think about and consider when you're only backed by theory
@ariadne@Gottox the other way to do it is for a distribution to actually adopt it and collaborate with the service manager upstream (and have somebody working on the surrounding tooling a well)
that's what we're doing with dinit, and obviously it takes time, but there is no other way
what happens when you just take the service manager and shove it in a distro without a second thought or proper integration: you get an artix, and that seriously sucks
@ariadne@Gottox fwiw the whole idea that creating a service manager is some kind of magical solution to service management problems is flawed, in reality it's only a part of it
sure, you need a solid base, but the integration work and tooling around it is another massive part, and makes up the majority of the actual UX
you can do it like systemd and provide all that stuff along with it (RH had it easy though since they have an in-house OS) which takes away power from the distribution, or...
@ariadne@Gottox i don't really care what alpine ends up doing, as that's their choice and not ours; and it's not even like you're wrong wrt "systemd-free" projects ignoring what people want in practice (if anything that's one of *the* reasons this project was started and i've been saying that exact thing for years) but the way you say it sounds like a massive fuck you to anybody actually trying to make a real difference and i don't approve of that, it's toxic as hell
@Gottox what you're doing here is pointless because 1) @ariadne has already decided she's right from the point the first post was made, and therefore everyone who is not nodding in agreement is stupid 2) therefore our efforts are already obviously doomed to fail, and are nothing but somebody's pet project that wasn't even thought through
@wezm tbh not a huge fan of the current discourse; way too much "my opinion is the correct one and yours is stupid" and very little anything actually new or interesting
one thing a lot of people notably miss is that the whole deal with service management is only partly about service management; the integration and surrounding tooling/infrastructure is the other part and it's just as important (and often underestimated)
@cas@hipsterelectron cbuild can do all that (build system abstractions, cross-compilation, whole-system bootstrap and build for a specific target)
it was never made to "just replace one language with another", it's more like "take everything that sucks about existing package buildsystems and do not do that"
#gnome 45 has landed (incl. a workaround for the lockscreen kill bug on amdgpu/ryzen systems, a stack overflow fix for systems with large LUTs, and the debian/ubuntu triple buffering patch), should appear in the repos in the coming minutes to hours
starting today the X server and related tools have been moved out of the main/ section of the repository (therefore the core system is going (x)wayland-only)
it'll live out its days in contrib/ where it belongs
builds are fully automated on native hardware, with a dedicated machine per arch (except riscv64, which is built on an x86_64 machine using qemu-user emulation, as reasonable hardware does not yet exist) thanks to the excellent Buildbot software (https://build.chimera-linux.org)