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   Alexandre Oliva (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Sunday, 11-Dec-2022 04:30:42 JST Alexandre Oliva

   • Simon Phipps
   since about february 1998, really.
   did you believe the bs about being a marketing department for the free software movement, so as to bring corporations into our beds? the idea of setting aside and burying the things that matter the most for us to appeal to our antagonists than then took over and further corrupted your organization, to the point of turning against the movement it claimed to do marketing for?
   of course these have been attacks. and that you make fun of the fundamental differences that make us not the same at all by misrepresenting them as that monty python scene? that's another attack. and that you tell me to shut up, because I'm disrupting your attempt to fool others into believing you're the poor victim of evil attacks? that's yet another attack, regardless of the euphemism you used to phrase it.
   it's not cool, man. you didn't even answer my question about where you stood. why not? it's a simple question. are you really with us, or will you stop pretending that you are? it's ok if you have different goals, a different cause. no qualms about that. but pretending the differences aren't there is an attack on our identity, and denying your attacks and framing our complaints about it as an unjustified attack on you are typical gaslighting and victim-blaming of aggressors. please drop that.
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     Alexandre Oliva (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Sunday, 11-Dec-2022 05:08:44 JST Alexandre Oliva

     in reply to

     • Simon Phipps
     I realize I made a mistake. I answered your question as if you'd written "we" rather than "I". I apologize for that mistake.
     only some of the attacks I mentioned came from you personally. I dislike those, but they're hardly the root of our fundamental disagreements. I respect you as a human being and I've enjoyed some of your writings. but it's true that open source's misrepresentations of what free software stands for, and the cheap shots that some of your (plural you) supporters engage in to demand us as a consequence of the tribal attitude driven by the original divide bother me immensely indeed, mainly because they hurt our movement so much. whether you are supportive, critical or neutral towards actions that hurt the free software movement would speak volumes.
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     Simon Phipps (webmink@meshed.cloud)'s status on Sunday, 11-Dec-2022 05:08:46 JST Simon Phipps

     in reply to

     @lxo
     Seriously, Alex? First you never met me until at least the late-2000s (at FISL) so "since 1998" is fantasy. Second I have taken the greatest care never to attack you (or indeed FSF-LA) despite your constant provocations. I think your anger towards OSI is blinding you.

     I had hoped to count you as a friend after our meetings at FISL, but clearly you prefer to treat me as an cipher in your ancestral hatred of OSI (the issues with which I actually sought to correct).

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     Alexandre Oliva (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Sunday, 11-Dec-2022 05:44:00 JST Alexandre Oliva

     in reply to

     • Simon Phipps
     you're placing words in my mouth, and then proceeding to attack me through that strawman
     the existence of differences between what we stand for, rather than pretending they don't exist as someone else did, does not translate to not finding common cause. understanding our differences is essential to be able to cooperate effectively in ways that reward all cooperating parties equitably. it's attempts to pretend there are no differences that's harmful and seems like attempted exploitation; misrepresenting it as if we were making a fuss over nothing attacks us in demeaning that which is important to us but that isn't to you. it's not kind, it's hostile. that's what draws attention away from what we have in common, from opportunities for cooperation, and pushes people to attack us and perceive us and you as the two seemingly indistinguishable but conflicted-to-death organizations mocked by monty python. the misperception that we're the same, that the differences don't matter, can be trivially traced back to OSS's campaigns to sweep the differences under the carpet, while demeaning our values and our struggle for actually different goals. these were not kind, they were and remain hostile and divisive.
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     Simon Phipps (webmink@meshed.cloud)'s status on Sunday, 11-Dec-2022 05:44:01 JST Simon Phipps

     in reply to

     @lxo
     I regret your choice not to find common cause with people who mostly agree with you and focus on what you think is a difference & a conceptual harm. That choice is being used, right now, by corporate lawyers as an exemplar to undermine our common cause of software freedom & persuade the European Commission patents in software standards are OK.

     Your hostility measurably impedes the work I and others are doing to prevent a very real harm. That's why I'm asking you to stop.

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     CyberSpook?? (cyberspook@soc.redeyes.site)'s status on Sunday, 11-Dec-2022 05:44:34 JST CyberSpook??

     in reply to

     • Simon Phipps
     @lxo
     Libre software advocates and GNU supporters are always to blame, are always called bullies. My position is the one that always gets the most hate, even if I did nothing hurtful to others. Sometimes I do wish I was left alone.
     
     One does wonder if the reputation that libre software supporters have really reflects reality or is simply made up. In my experience, what is often attributed to the supporters of FSF are the qualities of OSI supporters themselves. The libre software community gives me the impression of passionate people who really love what they're doing and just want to share their passion with others.
     @webmink
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     Alexandre Oliva (lxo@gnusocial.net)'s status on Sunday, 11-Dec-2022 05:57:09 JST Alexandre Oliva

     in reply to

     • CyberSpook??
     assigning to an opponent one's own faults is a common form of attack. it's called projection. I suspect it's often done unwittingly, simply for applying one's own motivations and forms of reasoning when attempting to formulate a theory of mind to understand and predict the opponent's behaviors.
     it's very common behavior, alas. I suppose every conflict involving numerous people will have plenty of people espousing such theories on all sides. it's not cool, but there it is.
     seeding hatred often finds fertile minds, alas, whether among one's allies towards an opponent, whether attacking an opponent and bringing hatred from all opponents onto one's allies. but aggressors, invaders and the likes tend to forget their own attacks, and perceive and resent only the "unjustified" reaction brought upon them. that's very human, but also worth talking politely about if we're to overcome conflicts and pursue useful cooperation