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1. Embed this notice
   Jeff Jarvis (jeffjarvis@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 28-Nov-2022 21:35:07 JST Jeff Jarvis

   • Kathy Griffin

   On Post, @kathygriffin challenges Noam about Andreessen and he starts backing away (see screenshot). To which Kathy responded:
   "Please don’t try to gaslight anyone on Marc Andreessen, of all people.
   "Please understand that real world people had no clue about who Elon Musk and Peter Theil were, much less the destruction we didn’t catch in time. You didn’t HAVE to go to AH. You could’ve self funded."

   • Embed this notice
     Tim Bray (timbray@mastodon.cloud)'s status on Monday, 28-Nov-2022 21:35:05 JST Tim Bray

     in reply to

     • Kathy Griffin
     • Michele :ablobderpy:

     @Michele @kathygriffin @jeffjarvis

     I disagree. An algorithm is not intrinsically bad. As long as we understand that it represents the interests of whoever paid to have it constructed. I think an algorithm with human values that simply wanted to enrich experience is perfectly possible.

     I haven't seen one, probably because nobody has ever had a financial incentive to construct it.

     Mastodon would be a good place to try to make one.

   • Embed this notice
     Michele :ablobderpy: (michele@mas.to)'s status on Monday, 28-Nov-2022 21:35:06 JST Michele :ablobderpy:

     in reply to

     • Kathy Griffin

     @kathygriffin @jeffjarvis I don’t understand why anyone would want to be on another platform with an algorithm. It sucks.

     Evan Prodromou repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@prodromou.pub)'s status on Monday, 28-Nov-2022 22:16:49 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Kathy Griffin
     • Tim Bray
     • Michele :ablobderpy:

     @timbray @Michele @kathygriffin @jeffjarvis

     We don't have to optimize for engagement.

     We could optimize for better connections with the people you care about.

     For a richer and more fulfilling life.

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@prodromou.pub)'s status on Monday, 28-Nov-2022 23:48:46 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • debs

     @debs things like, "You haven't talked to your friend Kevin in a month. Here are some of his pictures from his trip to Boston." Or "Did you know that you and your friend debs both share an interest in baking? Here's some of her latest posts about baking."

   • Embed this notice
     debs (debs@mastodon.cloud)'s status on Monday, 28-Nov-2022 23:48:48 JST debs

     in reply to

     • Kathy Griffin
     • Tim Bray
     • Michele :ablobderpy:
     • Evan Prodromou
     • blaine

     @jeffjarvis @timbray @blaine @Michele @kathygriffin @evan

     Yes! We need to choose what we prioritize.

     I’ve been dreaming of an app that is built on “interestingness” and “connection”. I assume 90% of us are using Metatext or Mastodon app.

   • Embed this notice
     blaine (blaine@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 28-Nov-2022 23:48:49 JST blaine

     in reply to

     • Kathy Griffin
     • Tim Bray
     • Michele :ablobderpy:
     • Evan Prodromou

     @jeffjarvis @evan @timbray @Michele @kathygriffin in this space, let's be clear, too, that "chronological" is an algorithm. Any sort of automatic moderation (blocking, muting, etc) is an algorithm.

     The key thing is that *anyone* here can be in control of the algorithm that affects them. We aren't ever again going to be bound by the whims and anxieties of a bunch of guys looking to make a dollar.

     (We do all have to hold ourselves accountable, which is liberating and terrifying, of course!)

   • Embed this notice
     Jeff Jarvis (jeffjarvis@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 28-Nov-2022 23:48:50 JST Jeff Jarvis

     in reply to

     • Kathy Griffin
     • Tim Bray
     • Michele :ablobderpy:
     • Evan Prodromou

     @evan @timbray @Michele @kathygriffin Right.

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@prodromou.pub)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Nov-2022 01:32:57 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Aris Teon

     @aristeon

     This is *our* network.

     Just because these tools are used for engagement and ad clicks on other social networks doesn't mean we need to use them for that purpose here.

     Our social tools should serve our own social needs.

     I *don't* need controversy or outrage in my life.

     I *do* need connection, deep relationships, and community interaction.

     If the tools serve *our* purposes, and are under *our* control, why wouldn't we use them?

   • Embed this notice
     Aris Teon (aristeon@tooting.ch)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Nov-2022 01:32:58 JST Aris Teon

     in reply to

     • Kathy Griffin
     • Tim Bray
     • Michele :ablobderpy:
     • Evan Prodromou
     • blaine

     @blaine @jeffjarvis @evan @timbray @Michele @kathygriffin when ppl say algorithm they mean a nonchronological, algorithmically curated timeline based on engagement or other criteria. I think the timeline should stay chronological because any other criterion can lead to amplifying controversy, outrage or can be influenced by various biases. I don't understand why some people are pushing for this.

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@prodromou.pub)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Nov-2022 01:48:37 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Tim Chambers
     • Kathy Griffin
     • Tim Bray
     • Michele :ablobderpy:
     • blaine

     @tchambers @blaine @jeffjarvis @timbray @Michele @kathygriffin agreed on both

   • Embed this notice
     Tim Chambers (tchambers@indieweb.social)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Nov-2022 01:48:38 JST Tim Chambers

     in reply to

     • Kathy Griffin
     • Tim Bray
     • Michele :ablobderpy:
     • Evan Prodromou
     • blaine

     @blaine @jeffjarvis @evan @timbray @Michele @kathygriffin

     And by "in control" it should be a setting in every List, Local, Federated and Direct List that with one click you can go edit and tweak to your hearts content.

     And the default should be just "chronological" in my book.

   • Embed this notice
     Kevin Marks (kevinmarks@xoxo.zone)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Nov-2022 04:48:45 JST Kevin Marks

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou
     • debs

     @evan @debs it was New York, not Boston… but yes

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@prodromou.pub)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Nov-2022 04:48:45 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Kevin Marks
     • debs

     @KevinMarks @debs THOSE EMPANADAS

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@prodromou.pub)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Nov-2022 04:59:23 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Aris Teon

     @aristeon I was thinking third-party tools, like an alternative mobile or web client. If it was useful enough, an alternative way of sorting input for the main web client.

   • Embed this notice
     Aris Teon (aristeon@tooting.ch)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Nov-2022 04:59:24 JST Aris Teon

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @evan if the majority here want to overhaul the timeline and start a huge experiment in algorithms, I'm out of here. I have no interest in replacing what has always worked well thanks to its simplicity with a variety of algorithms and endless discussions about how to implement them.

   • Embed this notice
     Aris Teon (aristeon@tooting.ch)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Nov-2022 04:59:25 JST Aris Teon

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @evan who is we in this context? Is there going to be a democratic one person one vote decision? Or are the loudest voices entitled to decide for everyone else? And how are these algorithms going to be implemented? A chronological timeline has always worked, on FB, Twitter and here. You suggest to change that and create a curated experience which leads to plenty of unintended consequences, such as ppl being left out, outrage amplified and accounts gaming the algorithms.

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@prodromou.pub)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Nov-2022 23:44:33 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Aris Teon
     • scottbw ? ????

     @aristeon @scottbw

     Federation means a distributed locus of control.

     We have a many different server software implementations;

     Many different clients for those servers;

     Many instances with different patches and configuration options;

     Many, many user accounts with different user settings.

   • Embed this notice
     Aris Teon (aristeon@tooting.ch)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Nov-2022 23:44:34 JST Aris Teon

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou
     • scottbw ? ????

     @scottbw @evan certainly not by having a few loud voices impose a model that has always failed. If we must renegotiate the rules every minute, there's no governance, and people will leave. Having a chronological timeline and no Quote blogs seems like a sound basis.

     Chronological timelines have worked on FB, Twitter and here. If that changes, people can draw their own conclusions. I will move somewhere else.

   • Embed this notice
     scottbw ? ???? (scottbw@social.targaryen.house)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Nov-2022 23:45:03 JST scottbw ? ????

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou
     • Aris Teon

     @aristeon @evan Ah, so what we're talking about here is software governance. How do you think users could or should be involved in the governance (i.e. making the roadmap and feature decisions) of an app like Mastodon?

   • Embed this notice
     Aris Teon (aristeon@tooting.ch)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Nov-2022 23:45:04 JST Aris Teon

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou
     • scottbw ? ????

     @scottbw @evan maybe you do and maybe you don't, a persuasive argument. Do you have your own fediverse app? And how are the algorithms changing your timeline? Show us the outcome.

     Anyway, my argument is about changes that affect everyone, such as instances or popular apps like Mastodon doing it. Few people will build their own apps, so that is not relevant for most users.

   • Embed this notice
     scottbw ? ???? (scottbw@social.targaryen.house)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Nov-2022 23:45:15 JST scottbw ? ????

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou
     • Aris Teon

     @aristeon @evan If I build my own fedi app with a non-chronological timeline, or indeed no timeline at all, in what way does that affect you? In fact, how do you know I'm not doing that right now?

   • Embed this notice
     Aris Teon (aristeon@tooting.ch)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Nov-2022 23:45:16 JST Aris Teon

     in reply to

     • Evan Prodromou

     @evan everything sounds good except: do you have specific examples? And have you thought about unintended consequences? I don't care about any suggestion where unintended consequences (which are plausible, such as the emergence of silos, tribalism, outrage gaming of the nonchronological algorithms etc) are ignored, dismissed and glossed over. And for what? What is the actual benefit of nonchronological algorithms specifically on which platform?

   • Embed this notice
     Evan Prodromou (evan@prodromou.pub)'s status on Tuesday, 29-Nov-2022 23:48:35 JST Evan Prodromou

     in reply to

     • Aris Teon
     • scottbw ? ????

     @aristeon @scottbw

     It's unlikely that the default Mastodon home timeline will change from reverse chronological order. Many people consider it a crucial feature.

     If it were to happen, you would be able to change user settings, client software, instance, or server software without losing access to your social graph or data.

     Noone can force any kind of algorithm on you in this network. Not even the Mastodon dev team!

     Can we put please this topic to rest?