Rich Felker
Over the past few months my opinion of Rust has gone from
"promising technical approach, poor willingness to understand others' past mistakes and how to avoid making them, somewhat hostile to existing standards and ecosystems but likely salvagable"
to
to "everything about this language and project is an utter dumpster fire".
Rich Felker
Like, I'm almost to the point where I want nothing to do with anything written in Rust.
Rich Felker
@xan The language of scabs.
XANTRONIX
@dalias It's incredibly baffling to me how frequently it has been demonstrated in the course of uutils development how little people have referenced even coreutils CVE data or taken care to understand really basic things, like, /dev/tty or the file descriptor-oriented calls that make shit safer
it seems less like an exercise in safety and more a clean room effort to relicense a thing in an ecosystem popular with the kids
Rich Felker
@xan It's not just the LLM usage that's anti-labor, but the friendliness to RIIR projects that exist primarily to displace or outright LLM-copyright-launder existing copyleft and/or LLM-unfriendly upstreams.
XANTRONIX
@dalias it's hard for me to call everyone i know using it a scab (in any sense of the word including anti-labour LLM usage) but i'll be goddamned if there aren't a lot of LLM lovers out there who really want to infect the community
Rich Felker
Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
Rich Felker
@hyc @nxadm I deem NOT having a LPM or automatic-dependency-fetching a necessary condition for a viable language in this domain.
Howard Chu @ Symas
@dalias yep, same. https://mastodon.social/@hyc/114841502231953489
Frankly the interminably slow compile times were the first red flag for me. But resorting to AI just yells out "we don't know what we're doing".
nxadm
What about other contenders like Go (fast compile, less smug about C)?
Howard Chu @ Symas
@nxadm @dalias Go has this weird design mentality of fetching every dependency you're using, straight from github. And no dynamic linking. It's too opinionated, IMO.
Not to mention it was intentionally designed to be less flexible than C.
Rich Felker
@nxadm @hyc Yes, those are all bad for exactly the same reasons.
nxadm
I don't see the difference with e.g. Java before maven where you had download libraries from weird random sites, or npm today where you know your dependencies will break in a few month. Probably good old Perl had it right with their CPAN model.
nxadm
(It's not tied to github, it can be anything. It's in practice mostly github because most people publish their libraries there.)
Howard Chu @ Symas
@nxadm @dalias yes, but still that's an open door for malware, wherever you point it. https://mastodon.social/@hyc/113999242008616734
Howard Chu @ Symas
@nxadm @dalias if you look at it as an attempt to make human programmers into interchangeable code spewing machines, then Google's new emphasis on AI code spewing machines probably means golang was a failure.
Howard Chu @ Symas
@nxadm @dalias also, it's intentionally limiting in its expressiveness. Which makes sense as one of its design goals - it was designed to make projects and programmers at Google interchangeable. There's only one way to do things, so there can only be one "style". In short, it's designed for mediocrity. https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Lang-NEXT/Lang-NEXT-2014/From-Parallel-to-Concurrent
Orman
@hyc @nxadm @dalias This is a different aspect of the same point but IMO go is fundamentally unserious at the language level because it focuses on a notion of "simplicity" that makes all complexity the programmer's problem, and failure to handle it their fault.
e.g. we had no excuse for `nil` after the Java/C# era, but go not only has it, it has to twist itself in knots because having `nil` means that, e.g. your type must have a zero-value, it can't have any RAII invariant, there has to be a well-defined answer to things like "what happens if you await a nil channel receiver" (we block forever)
I can appreciate that people are getting sick of the Rust team's political and design decisions, but the technical foundation that lets you use "values as certificates" is a vast improvement over almost every other language going.
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