Conversation

Notices

1. Embed this notice
   nixCraft 🐧 (nixcraft@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 22-May-2025 22:41:26 JST nixCraft 🐧

   Wait what? Microsoft edit on Linux? Apparently it is now open source software by MS and works on Linux or Unix. It is written in Rust. https://github.com/microsoft/edit such a weird time line 🙃

   • Embed this notice
     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Thursday, 22-May-2025 22:41:25 JST 翠星石

     in reply to
     @nixCraft Wow - microsoft just needs to post some source-available proprietary software to github and "Linux" news sites will always advertise it.
     
     Rust is not a free language and the software in question is MIT expat subliecnsed with proprietary restrictions (which might still qualify as "open source", but it is not free software).
   • Embed this notice
     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Thursday, 22-May-2025 22:50:37 JST 翠星石

     in reply to

     • pom
     @pom https://raw.githubusercontent.com/microsoft/edit/refs/heads/main/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
   • Embed this notice
     pom (pom@spergia.net)'s status on Thursday, 22-May-2025 22:50:39 JST pom

     in reply to

     • 翠星石
     @Suiseiseki @nixCraft Which proprietary restrictions? I only see standard MIT boilerplate here, not even anything about trademarks like you might see on (for example) the GPLv3 releases of SimCity or the Command and Conquer games by Electronic Arts. The broader point being missed here is that nu-edit is pointless and there are much, *much* better alternatives even for its intended niche (micro etc.)
   • Embed this notice
     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Thursday, 22-May-2025 22:59:44 JST 翠星石

     in reply to

     • okasion
     @anokasion >seems that the project it's important enough and will only get better if it is open sourced
     As far as I am aware, microsoft has never released free software - the software is always proprietary in some way.
     
     An "open source development model" may make the software functionally better, but that isn't a good thing, as if the software chains the users for example, the chains only get more restrictive and constrictive.
     
     >I'm talking exclusively on the CLI which is what I only use.
     Are you talking about GNU bash?
     
     If you exclusively use GNU bash, then why not escape from windows to freedom?
     
     >important is VScode's Copilot having the source available is.
     I haven't checked, but my proprietary senses are telling me that it isn't even fully source-available.
   • Embed this notice
     okasion (anokasion@cawfee.club)'s status on Thursday, 22-May-2025 22:59:45 JST okasion

     in reply to

     • 翠星石
     @Suiseiseki @nixCraft you're right (it is not right), but for me that has been using WSL 2 for some time now, seems that the project it's important enough and will only get better if it is open sourced, because as good as it is already, it reallty needs some job on very custom configs, and specially more clarity on how some things like how the net stack to Windows works. I'm talking exclusively on the CLI which is what I only use.
     Never used Cursor so I don't need how much important is VScode's Copilot having the source available is.
   • Embed this notice
     okasion (anokasion@cawfee.club)'s status on Thursday, 22-May-2025 23:25:47 JST okasion

     in reply to

     • 翠星石
     @Suiseiseki >As far as I am aware, microsoft has never released free software - the software is always proprietary in some way.
     I disagree with this, I do believe it has always been in some way for their benefit, but there have been instances in that there weren't any chains attached.
     
     >>I'm talking exclusively on the CLI which is what I only use.
     >Are you talking about GNU bash?
     I'm talking that it comes with the "ability" to open GTK/QT applications to work with as if they were just another Windows program. I have never got into that because I don't need it and I don't like it. Uploading a hideous picture as basic example.
     That's what I meant with "only using CLI" -only using the POSIX based shell you setup on your WSL.
   • Embed this notice
     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Thursday, 22-May-2025 23:25:47 JST 翠星石

     in reply to

     • okasion
     @anokasion >there have been instances in that there weren't any chains attached.
     Can you name any?
     
     >I'm talking that it comes with the "ability" to open GTK/QT applications to work with as if they were just another Windows program.
     That is called an X server.
     
     X servers for windows have existed for years, some of which are actually free software; https://sourceforge.net/projects/vcxsrv/
     
     >only using the POSIX based shell you setup on your WSL.
     There is no POSIX shell - only POSIX compatible shells.
     
     I suspect you are using GNU bash, which is not POSIX;
     echo $SHELL
     $SHELL --version
   • Embed this notice
     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Thursday, 22-May-2025 23:34:17 JST 翠星石

     in reply to

     • pom
     @pom >This doesn't restrict any of the four freedoms by letter
     But it restricts the 4 freedoms by spirit.
     
     >you can just fork it and do things yourself as you are entitled to by the license
     microsoft loves proprietary surprises, thus it wouldn't surprise me if there are some files you are not allowed to modify or distribute and/or a dependency on a proprietary library.
     
     Oh wait - the proprietary surprise is that it's written in rust - you can't enjoy freedom and compile it with GCC can you?
   • Embed this notice
     pom (pom@spergia.net)'s status on Thursday, 22-May-2025 23:34:18 JST pom

     in reply to

     • 翠星石
     @Suiseiseki This doesn't restrict any of the four freedoms by letter, you can just fork it and do things yourself as you are entitled to by the license. It's not like those "ethical" licenses which force you into certain patterns of behavior or else you aren't legally entitled to use the software.
   • Embed this notice
     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Thursday, 22-May-2025 23:52:02 JST 翠星石

     in reply to

     • pom
     @pom gcc-rs is not progressing well - it can't compile hello world and its been 8+ years.
     
     WINE offers a library that can probably untangle those problems with a few modifications.
   • Embed this notice
     pom (pom@spergia.net)'s status on Thursday, 22-May-2025 23:52:03 JST pom

     in reply to

     • 翠星石
     @Suiseiseki gcc-rs is progressing well, the bigger issue is all the Win32 entanglements.
   • Embed this notice
     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Friday, 23-May-2025 00:10:43 JST 翠星石

     in reply to

     • okasion
     @anokasion >DOS 4.0
     Reviewing the sources of DOSv4.0, that is not free software - there is a bunch of *.EXE and *.LIB object code without source code (for example under src/LIB the sources have been removed and the MAKEFILE has been blanked).
     
     >VScode
     VSCode is proprietary software; https://code.visualstudio.com/license
     
     Although the non-corresponding source code for VSCode (with some of the spyware and malware omitted) has been published and VSCodium has been released, VSCodium is still proprietary software as it depends on the proprietary Electron; https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Talk:Electron
     
     Furthermore, that is dependent on plugins to implement many languages and many of those plugins are proprietary.
     
     
     microsoft likes to give the appearance of "open sourcing", but they ensure the software is never even source-available.
     
     >if it's opening a X in the WSL background to render such applications, I do not know, sounds likely, and with the source available, it's another thing "the community" will be able to know.
     X is designed to work as a windowing server and allows for the software and the windowing server to run on different computers.
     
     There is a windows program that implements the X protocol, thus when the program running on GNU draws a button, window's GUI generates a button.
     
     microsofts schemes are working excellently, considering that microsoft did *not* publish the sources to "WSL2" - instead they published (partial) sources to "WSL1", which was GNU without Linux; https://mikegerwitz.com/2016/04/gnu-kwindows
     
     >you can't run startx or lightdm or any XDM
     You can in fact run a desktop environment - although that requires selecting a full window in which to display it (which VcXsrv does support), but that doesn't integrate with the windows desktop, thus the typical usage is standalone windows.
     
     >yes I'm using Bash because it's what I used since Slackware 10, only tried zsh
     You should use the best shell that respects your freedom, thus you should keep using GNU bash, but you should name the GNU and not call it "CLI".
     
     >My point was that you can change the shell to any as long it's POSIX compliant (fish, zsh, bash, etc.)
     GNU bash is not POSIX-compliant - although it is possible to change the shell to whatever on the GNU OS.
   • Embed this notice
     okasion (anokasion@cawfee.club)'s status on Friday, 23-May-2025 00:10:44 JST okasion

     in reply to

     • 翠星石
     @Suiseiseki oh you are a complicated one... you remind me of a French friend I had. I miss him.
     
     >there have been instances in that there weren't any chains attached.
     Can you name any?
     
     I don't remember important ones atm so I'm just gonna go with DOS 4.0 and VScode which enabled the community to fork it and make VSCodium/Code.
     
     >I'm talking that it comes with the "ability" to open GTK/QT applications to work with as if they were just another Windows program.
     That is called an X server.
     
     Yes, I know what's an X server, that's why I explicity said GTK/QT applications, if it's opening a X in the WSL background to render such applications, I do not know, sounds likely, and with the source available, it's another thing "the community" will be able to know.
     But you are not opening any Windows Manager, you can't run startx or lightdm or any XDM, that was my point on running GTK/QT applications as any Windows program.
     
     Finally, yes I'm using Bash because it's what I used since Slackware 10, only tried zsh for some time because customized and weird FreeBSD at work a long time ago.
     My point was that you can change the shell to any as long it's POSIX compliant (fish, zsh, bash, etc.)
   • Embed this notice
     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Friday, 23-May-2025 01:20:07 JST 翠星石

     in reply to

     • okasion
     @anokasion >VSCodium/Code it's a fast and beginner to advanced, friendly, very mature editor, with many plugins extremely useful, developed thanks to being a fork of a mainstream product by MS.
     For something to be friendly, the prerequisite is that it at least must respect the users freedom.
     
     The plugins may be convenient, but they're proprietary.
     
     Even if it was free software, it'll still be utter garbage and users should use a decent editor instead that is not a web browser.
     
     >And I forgot, but it's true and very important, it is the WSL 1.0 that is being open sourced
     It was not "open sourced" - only part of it was released in source form.
     
     The source of the program that implemented Linux's SYSCALLs (so GNU/Linux elf's could be run without Linux) hasn't been released.
     
     >I still belive it's a very good step that shows WSL is worth it for MS
     The reason why "WSL" exists is because otherwise people would escape to GNU/Linux - instead microsoft accessed a carefully restricted and surveilled way to access GNU bash that they referred to as "Linux", so people would keep using windows.
     
     Cygwin, MSYS2 and Virtualbox existed already and "WSL" is functionally worse than those in many respects.
     
     >I would invite you to try it. Maybe don't install a default WSL with Ubuntu like I did
     I have escaped to freedom - I use real GNU/Linux-libre, rather than shackling myself with microsoft.
     
     >I would have never thought that Bash wasn't POSIX compliant.
     In the sh mode it turns on POSIX-mode, but it won't past the proprietary POSIX test suite.
     
     GNU treats POSIX as a recommendation - if POSIX does something good, GNU implements that, if POSIX does something bad, like set a 512 byte block size by default, GNU doesn't follow it and defaults to 1024 bytes; https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/Block-size.html
     
     Occasionally optional backwards POSIX-compliance has been added and can be enabled via the POSIXLY_CORRECT variable (was going to be POSIX_ME_HARDER), but even with that variable enabled, none of the software will pass the proprietary POSIX test suite.
   • Embed this notice
     okasion (anokasion@cawfee.club)'s status on Friday, 23-May-2025 01:20:08 JST okasion

     in reply to

     • 翠星石
     @Suiseiseki although the Microsoft schemes it's more of a subjective thing IMO -for example I agree with you on VScode still being attached to MS (and not only due to Electron), but I believe VSCodium/Code it's a fast and beginner to advanced, friendly, very mature editor, with many plugins extremely useful, developed thanks to being a fork of a mainstream product by MS.
     
     On the X topic, you have told me some things I didn't know, but still I hope you understand why I kept trying in the discussion to divide running a Windows Manager, a X session, from directly running the programs on WSL.
     
     And I forgot, but it's true and very important, it is the WSL 1.0 that is being open sourced, not WSL 2.0 -however I still belive it's a very good step that shows WSL is worth it for MS -even if it may end badly as history teached us, we are in the extend period, and it's really nice for now, I don't know if you tried it, but if you didn't I would invite you to try it. Maybe don't install a default WSL with Ubuntu like I did, although it really has not given me any problem except some NAT preconfiguration that it's neccesary to remove and change for some daemons to communicate properly.
     
     I would have never thought that Bash wasn't POSIX compliant.