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1. Embed this notice
   Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 08:38:43 JST Bernie

   After watching several videos on #retrobrighting techniques, I started a couple of small-scale experiments to see if my setup works.

   This year's Christmas decorations will shine in UV light! 😎

   #retrocomputing #vintagecomputing

   • Embed this notice
     Jason Self (jxself@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 08:39:54 JST Jason Self

     in reply to

     @codewiz What are you retrobrighting?

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 08:42:48 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     If you followed my A3000 restoration threads, you can easily guess which yellowed plastic I need to retrobright :amiga:
     https://mstdn.io/@codewiz/113586277421694238

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 09:12:46 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     This cheap PC keyboard will go first to test the effectiveness of my #retrobrighting process.

     The very first step consists in a bath in dish soap and hot water. This should prevent grease and other dirt from blocking the UV light and the ozone.

     While I was at it, I also threw in the PCB, just to see if my soap is safe for electronics.

     Then I rinsed everything with fresh water and wiped with 70% isopropyl, which didn't seem to disturb the key engravings.

     #retrocomputing #vintagecomputing

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 09:13:46 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     • Jason Self

     @jxself Hang on, I'm writing another of those long threads :-)

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 09:26:10 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     Many #retrobrighting videos dip the plastic to be treated in concentrated hydrogen peroxide, or coat it with hair bleaching cream, which may contain other chemicals.

     But 12% peroxide is kinda expensive, and I couldn't find any in nearby stores. The fastest delivery I could find wouldn't arrive in time for Santa to admire my first retrobrighted keyboard.

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 09:57:41 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     So I decided to try an alternative: sodium carbonate. Pure and natural since 1874... and dirt cheap at $0.10 per ounce!

     I'm no chemist. Until yesterday, I didn't even realize that washing soda isn't the same of baking soda (sodium *BI*carbonate).

     #retrobrighting #retrocomputing #chemistry

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 10:10:49 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     But I suspect what was actually needed was sodium *PER*carbonate! 😫
     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_percarbonate

     Wikipedia confirms that, in water, percarbonate decomposes into hydrogen peroxide. Which is why it works the same for #retrobrighting.

     But I don't have any percarbonate at home, and it won't arrive before Dec 29 either.

     Moreover, how much would I need to get the equivalent of 12% peroxide? Now I regret not paying enough attention in #chemistry classes! ⚗️

   • Embed this notice
     Jason Self (jxself@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 11:07:23 JST Jason Self

     in reply to

     @codewiz Wikipedia claims "It contains 32.5% by weight of hydrogen peroxide", so if you have 1000 grams of water, you need 1000(12/32.5) grams. to arrive at 12%.

   • Embed this notice
     Flight of the No Agenda ✒️ (el_jefe@noauthority.social)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 13:05:56 JST Flight of the No Agenda ✒️

     in reply to

     @codewiz

     Brave browser

     “To prepare 100 L of 12% hydrogen peroxide solution, you would need approximately 465.5 g of sodium percarbonate.
     As for the water, you’ll need to dissolve the sodium percarbonate in it. A general rule of thumb is to use a 1:10 to 1:20 ratio of sodium percarbonate to water (w/w). Based on this, you could use:
     465.5 g sodium percarbonate + 4,655 g to 9,310 g water (approximate)
     Keep in mind that this calculation is an estimate, and the actual yield may vary…”

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 13:05:56 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     • Flight of the No Agenda ✒️

     @El_Jefe Both ChatGPT and Copilot (aka Bing Chat?) claim that you need ~280g of percarbonate to make a single liter of 12% peroxide.

     If only we could find an expert human to check their reasoning... 🙃

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 13:15:34 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     • Jason Self

     @jxself I find your reasoning more persuasive than any of the LLMs that were consulted so far:
     https://mstdn.io/@codewiz/113711484285996319

     Your formula gives 369g/L, a bit more than Copilot's 275g/L and ChatGPT's 286g/L.

     But where is the mistake in their process? The calculations and the atomic weights look correct.

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 14:42:41 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     Before realizing that sodium percarbonate was actually what I was supposed to use, I started a small AB-test in my UV chamber using plenty of sodium carbonate.

     After spending about 12 hours dipped in the solution, the '+' key (treatment) is visibly less yellow than the '-' key (control).

     Despite using the wrong #chemistry, my first #retrobrighting experiment didn't completely fail. Can anyone explain this surprising result?

     #retrocomputing #vintagecomputing

   • Embed this notice
     Jason Self (jxself@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 14:55:37 JST Jason Self

     in reply to

     @codewiz The screenshots are talking of sodium peroxide. It makes a difference which chemical you start with. How much sodium peroxide to make 12% H2O2 is not the same as how much sodium percarbonate to make 12% H2O2. Also there are different assumptions of weight/weight vs. weight/volume percentages. Try being clear in the LLM prompt on whether you're aiming for weight percent (wt%), weight/volume (w/v). It's normally weight percent (wt%).

   • Embed this notice
     Jason Self (jxself@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 14:56:00 JST Jason Self

     in reply to

     @codewiz Try this prompt: How much sodium percarbonate would i need to get the equivalent of 12% peroxide H202 in 1 liter of water in weight percent (wt%)?

   • Embed this notice
     Jason Self (jxself@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 15:00:17 JST Jason Self

     in reply to

     @codewiz Also, wasn't thinking fully and my number is too low because it was relative to the initial water, not relative to the new total solution mass so mine is ends up more like 8.77%. More like 585 grans are meeded to reach 12% by weight if all the H2O2 from the sodium percarbonate remains in solution.

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 15:23:42 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     • Jason Self

     @jxself And where would I get these test strips from?

     As you just saw, I'm totally clueless and confusing "sodium peroxide" with "sodium percarbonate".

     Ideally I'd just get a can of Mom's Old-Fashioned Retrobrighting Lotion (made with 10% more love than the next leading brand!)

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 15:31:16 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     • Dan Ports

     @dan I've already tested that sodium carbonate to rewash some yellowed kitchen and bathroom towels, but they still look the same.

     Guess I'll ask for a refund 😉

   • Embed this notice
     Dan Ports (dan@discuss.systems)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Dec-2024 15:31:17 JST Dan Ports

     in reply to

     @codewiz I didn't see if everyone else has already pointed this out, but you can also use sodium percarbonate for your laundry, once you have some

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Thursday, 26-Dec-2024 06:13:14 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     • Jamie Booth

     @jamie The 8-bit guy made exactly the same joke a few years ago: for some reason, he couldn't use the Ctrl key as a control in his experiment comparing various #retrobrighting methods.

     And I also couldn't, because both my Ctrl keys are visibly less yellowed than adjacent keys.

     I've seen keyboards whose space bar is more yellowed than the rest, but that's the only key having no engraving so it's plausible that it went through a different process.

     So, why Ctrl?? 🤷

     #retrocomputing

   • Embed this notice
     Jamie Booth (jamie@boothcomputing.social)'s status on Thursday, 26-Dec-2024 06:13:15 JST Jamie Booth

     in reply to

     @codewiz

     I think you lose points for not using the Ctrl key as the Control. 😁

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Thursday, 26-Dec-2024 13:38:17 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     I also bought a Sterilite storage box large enough for the A3000 keyboard. I believe it's made of polypropylene or polyethylene, which shouldn't block UV too much, but since my led strip is IP65, I figured I can just hang them on the inside of the lid.

     While waiting for one gallon of 12% hydrogen peroxide from Home Depot, I started another #retrobrighting experiment with concentrated sodium carbonate solution, just on a larger scale than the minus key.

     #chemistry

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Thursday, 26-Dec-2024 14:10:17 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     While the #chemistry is the same, the conditions are quite different:

     - I had to weight the plastic to keep it from floating: will the covered areas look different?

     - The same UV light source is being diffused in a much larger environment

     - 5W of light won't keep this larger reactor warm, so I moved my electric room heater next to it

     - This cheap box doesn't have a gasket all around the lid. Will it quickly vent out the radicals produced by peroxide decomposition in UV?

     #retrobrighting

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Sunday, 29-Dec-2024 02:53:29 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     My second #retrobrighting experiment with sodium carbonate for 24h ended with a slightly paler PC keyboard.

     The result is very uneven and the engravings look bleached. I'd call it a failure: don't bathe your vintage plastic in sodium carbonate!

     The two controls on the left have been kept outside the box (backspace) and inside, but suspended above the liquid (equals/plus).

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Sunday, 29-Dec-2024 03:08:26 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     Meanwhile, the 12% peroxide arrived, and I poured the entire 1 gal bottle in my #retrobrighting reactor for another 24h session with that poor PC keyboard.

     Notice the =/+ key sitting on top of a plastic weight to compare the effectiveness of the reaction in air.

     #vintagecomputing #chemistry

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Sunday, 29-Dec-2024 03:24:06 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     While hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) is commonly used to disinfect wounds and even for oral rinsing, at 12% concentration it must be handled with gloves.

     I touched the wet plastic with my bare fingers, and after a few seconds they were stinging, and the skin was already partially corroded. ✌️😮

     I guess that's why you can't purchase peroxide at higher concentrations from retail stores in the US.

     #retrobrighting #chemistry

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Sunday, 29-Dec-2024 10:04:27 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     • penguin42

     @penguin42 😲

     And how many gallons of peroxide can I buy online before they raid my house, find this weird box glowing in purple light and go: "aha! take him away!", without letting me finish to explain retrobrighting and vintage computing?

   • Embed this notice
     penguin42 (penguin42@mastodon.org.uk)'s status on Sunday, 29-Dec-2024 10:04:28 JST penguin42

     in reply to

     @codewiz I think the other reason is it's used for making bombs.

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Sunday, 29-Dec-2024 10:12:52 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     • Lukasz Pozniak (Lukas Rox)

     @rox_lukas It healed in just a couple of days, but I don't want to imagine what would would be like to dip the whole hand in my peroxide bath without rinsing it right away 😨

   • Embed this notice
     Lukasz Pozniak (Lukas Rox) (rox_lukas@cmdr.social)'s status on Sunday, 29-Dec-2024 10:12:53 JST Lukasz Pozniak (Lukas Rox)

     in reply to

     @codewiz whoa! I knew it's a potent oxidizer, but not that 12% could do THAT kind of damage. I hope it heals quickly!

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Sunday, 29-Dec-2024 10:35:56 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     The sacrificial PC keyboard turned shockingly pale after spending ~30h in my peroxide bath with UV light.

     The +/= key, which was suspended above the liquid, is almost the same shade.

     The minus and backspace keys are untreated, while the backslash key was only exposed to sunlight and then UV, but never went in with the peroxide.

     Contrary to reports that #retrobrighting weakens plastic, as far as I can tell the material remained strong and normally flexible.

     #chemistry #vintagecomputing

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Sunday, 29-Dec-2024 10:58:48 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     The finalized process appears to be safe enough to start treating our venerable #Amiga 3000 keyboard.

     Apart from the space bar, the keycaps don't need #retrobrighting. A good wipe with Windex will do.

     Before proceeding, I dipped the plastic shell in dishwasher soap and warm water for 15 minutes. This should remove any grease or dirt that might block our reaction.

     #commodore #retrocomputing #vintagecomputing

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Sunday, 29-Dec-2024 12:20:41 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     As an extra precaution, I'll start off with the keyboard case suspended above the surface of the peroxide.

     The +/= key has shown the effectiveness of the alternative dry process, which is also said to yield more even results.

     I'm kinda concerned that my UV led strips might illuminate things unevenly, so I'll come check every few hours and rearrange the parts if necessary.

     #commodore #amiga #vintagecomputing #chemistry #retrobrighting

   • Embed this notice
     Jason Self (jxself@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 29-Dec-2024 13:38:35 JST Jason Self

     in reply to

     @codewiz Here's your Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS): https://images.mysafetylabels.com/img/lg/G/hydrogen-peroxide-chemical-danger-ghs-label-ghs-032-b.png 😀

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Tuesday, 31-Dec-2024 01:52:00 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     • Jason Self

     @jxself I don't believe that a 12% peroxide solution could really catch fire: it's 88% plain water! Perhaps the fumes?

   • Embed this notice
     Jason Self (jxself@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 31-Dec-2024 06:33:35 JST Jason Self

     in reply to

     @codewiz Want to do some experiments (safely, outside) and see what happens?

     Expose your 12% to some organic compounds like on the rock: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/5i3guKmuBUI

     Or concentrate your 12% to 30% and get a bigger reaction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXyJgVlHUCw

     Or, for even more fun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlwLi34xFak

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Wednesday, 01-Jan-2025 09:55:42 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     • Jason Self

     @jxself 😱

     I'm getting all sorts of fun ideas for New Year celebrations in my backyard... too bad I still need the 12% peroxide for retrobrighting!

     Actually, is it safe to dispose of 1 gallon of peroxide down the drain? What if the pipes are made of copper? 😨

     I should have thought about the cleanup process *before* purchasing a highly reactive chemical...

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Wednesday, 01-Jan-2025 10:11:36 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     After 48h of dry #retrobrighting at room temperature, my #Amiga 3000 keyboard was still yellowish, though a paler shade than before.

     The space bar has an uneven gradient of yellow, suggesting that this air-gapped process doesn't guarantee uniform results.

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Wednesday, 01-Jan-2025 10:21:28 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     Oh no! My box is too narrow to dip both halves of the keyboard shell side by side, and the peroxide level is too low to cover them together.

     I can't leave it like this if I want a uniform #retrobrighting result...

     #amiga #vintagecomputing #retrocomputing

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Wednesday, 01-Jan-2025 10:37:45 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     I exposed the reactor core once again to rearrange the parts.

     Now the front part is face down, fully covered by peroxide but not lit by UV. Will it still get brighter this way?

     The bottom part is still half covered, and will need to be flipped every few hours.

     I could just add tap water to rise the level, but it would also dilute the solution, and I still want to #retrobright the #Amiga 3000
     front panel and the mouse later.

     #retrocomputing #vintagecomputing #chemistry

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Wednesday, 01-Jan-2025 10:54:48 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     • Joe

     @RegGuy Good idea! I'll look for suitable items...

   • Embed this notice
     Joe (regguy@mastodon.world)'s status on Wednesday, 01-Jan-2025 10:54:49 JST Joe

     in reply to

     @codewiz Put something into the solution that is neutral to raise the level. A few glasses filled with water until the solution covers both.

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Wednesday, 01-Jan-2025 12:27:32 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     • Joe

     Rising the level to cover the keyboard without diluting the peroxide wasn't hard after all. Thanks to @RegGuy for suggesting this. 💡

     While I was at it, I also poured hot water into the jars to speedup the reaction a little.

     #retrobrighting #vintagecomputing #chemistry

   • Embed this notice
     Jason Self (jxself@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 02-Jan-2025 01:54:49 JST Jason Self

     in reply to

     @codewiz If you dilute it with water to 3% it can do down the drain and it may even help clean the pipes in the process. That's probably the easiest option; otherwise what hazardous waste disposal options are there in your area?

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Thursday, 02-Jan-2025 09:33:37 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     It's time to prepare the #Amiga 3000 front panel and the shell of the "pregnant" mouse for #retrobrighting.

     As before, soak the parts in warm water and dish soap for 15 minutes, then rinse in the shower.

     #retrocomputing #vintagecomputing

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Friday, 03-Jan-2025 00:19:43 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     • Andrew 🏳️‍🌈 💻 🧦

     @amca Amiga Love ❤️ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyfxuIjdjfE

   • Embed this notice
     Andrew 🏳️‍🌈 💻 🧦 (amca@aus.social)'s status on Friday, 03-Jan-2025 00:19:44 JST Andrew 🏳️‍🌈 💻 🧦

     in reply to

     @codewiz Does that require having to get into the shower naked with the Amiga parts? 😉

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Friday, 03-Jan-2025 00:49:22 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     Reloading the #retrobrighting reactor core for another 24h run.

     The "control bars" keep the parts from floating around, but borosilicate glass absorbs UV, which might result in uneven results.

     #amiga #retrocomputing #vintagecomputing

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Friday, 03-Jan-2025 01:47:42 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     • VoxelTrots

     @davet I wrapped the tank in aluminium foil, but the plastic walls will filter some of the UV.

     I wasn't sure how aluminium foil would react with peroxide. Some metals will rapidly oxidize, releasing enough heat to melt some plastics: containers:
     https://www.youtube.com/shorts/5i3guKmuBUI

   • Embed this notice
     VoxelTrots (davet@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 03-Jan-2025 01:47:43 JST VoxelTrots

     in reply to

     @codewiz I wonder if a reflective coating on the inside of the container would help provide reflections for better coverage. Aluminum foil tape or cheap mirrors maybe.

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Friday, 03-Jan-2025 06:15:15 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     • Andrew 🏳️‍🌈 💻 🧦

     @amca I kinda expected a Rick Roll, but this is almost worse 😂

   • Embed this notice
     Andrew 🏳️‍🌈 💻 🧦 (amca@aus.social)'s status on Friday, 03-Jan-2025 06:15:16 JST Andrew 🏳️‍🌈 💻 🧦

     in reply to

     @codewiz What is love?

     https://youtu.be/HEXWRTEbj1I?si=GXCCSqCFrMm6TEPq

   • Embed this notice
     Bernie (codewiz@mstdn.io)'s status on Saturday, 04-Jan-2025 06:10:46 JST Bernie

     in reply to

     The #Amiga 3000 front panel came out after 48h in the #retrobrighting pool. The result is uniform and the shade matches the original shade.

     As for the PC keyboard, the plastic didn't become brittle or get damaged in any visible way.

     Sadly, the #Commodore logo on the front visibly faded 😢

     Is there a way to prevent this?

     #retrocomputing #vintagecomputing