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1. Embed this notice
   John Mark :blobcatverified: ☑️ (johnmark@freeradical.zone)'s status on Thursday, 07-Nov-2024 11:26:56 JST John Mark :blobcatverified: ☑️

   • mekka okereke :verified:
   • P J Evans

   @PJ_Evans @mekkaokereke She was touting the support of the Cheneys and other Republicans. If that's not dashing to the center, I don't know what it. The whole "bipartisan advisory board" thing - what would you call that?

   • Embed this notice
     mekka okereke :verified: (mekkaokereke@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 07-Nov-2024 23:08:32 JST mekka okereke :verified:

     in reply to

     • Matthew Loxton
     • P J Evans

     @mloxton @johnmark @PJ_Evans

     It's not insane.

     Read this and tell me if you understand why some Black people were discouraged from voting. It's honestly ok if you can't.

     https://hachyderm.io/@mekkaokereke/113296184910885905

   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Loxton (mloxton@med-mastodon.com)'s status on Thursday, 07-Nov-2024 23:08:33 JST Matthew Loxton

     in reply to

     • mekka okereke :verified:
     • P J Evans

     @johnmark
     Let's say for argument's sake that you are right, and that she linked arms with Cheney and even agreed to adopt a Cheney policy (which she didn't), what of it?

     Are you really saying it would be better to have the other guy win than vote for Harris?

     Is that what you did, or are you saying this is how some hypothetical person voted?

     I ask, because that would be an insane thing to do. Like actually insane.

     @PJ_Evans @mekkaokereke

   • Embed this notice
     mekka okereke :verified: (mekkaokereke@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 01:13:36 JST mekka okereke :verified:

     in reply to

     • Matthew Loxton
     • Jeremy

     @mloxton @jeromio

     Let me try this:

     2 million voters said "I am not here because I love you. I am here *only* to fight nazis. Your predecessor was unelectable because he said, 'I work with nazis, and give them a little of the genocide that they want! I sell you out!' If you say that you also work with nazis, then I will not vote for you either." and 10 million voters said, "Those dudes are being serious. Do not promise to work with nazis! They really will abandon you."

     And they did it anyway.

   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Loxton (mloxton@med-mastodon.com)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 01:13:37 JST Matthew Loxton

     in reply to

     • mekka okereke :verified:
     • Jeremy

     @jeromio
     I totally understand *why*.

     I am saying that the decision is insane. It is not a rational decision to say "fukit" when the outcomes are so severe for so many people.

     I didn't like that they reached across the aisle, I loathe the Cheney's, and I am very aware that all these Lincoln Project, Bulwark, etc people are the exact bastards that ushered the current situation in and bred, enabled, and released the cancer.

     But, saying fukit and walking away is an insane act

     @mekkaokereke

   • Embed this notice
     Jeremy (jeromio@triangletoot.party)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 01:13:39 JST Jeremy

     in reply to

     • mekka okereke :verified:
     • Matthew Loxton

     @mloxton
     Ok so this is where we profoundly disagree. I echo @mekkaokereke that "reaching across the aisle" *towards* racism, genocide, oligarchy, fascism is EXACTLY why those ppl said fukit, no point in jumping through voter suppression hoops to vote if there's nothing there to help me.

   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Loxton (mloxton@med-mastodon.com)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 01:13:40 JST Matthew Loxton

     in reply to

     • Jeremy

     @jeromio
     Right, 18M people made an insane choice.

     They were offered a choice of several candidates, only two of whom could possibly win - one of which would be somewhat better than status quo, and the other would be far far far worse. 18M either picked an impossible option, or walked away and got the default, which is the far far far worse option.

     That is insanity

     That Dems reached across the aisle to broaden the tent, or to depress the other candidate's turnout, is really irrelevant

   • Embed this notice
     Jeremy (jeromio@triangletoot.party)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 01:13:42 JST Jeremy

     in reply to

     • Matthew Loxton

     @mloxton
     Whether or not you (or I) voted is not the point. The fact is that ~18M ppl didn't bother - bc they were not inspired to do so. The less bad candidate chose to focus on appealing to the mythical (and statistically imaginary) "undecided voter". This is a stupid strategy that the Dems always fall back to. This time with a friggin BILLION $$ behind it. Lit up in flames.

   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Loxton (mloxton@med-mastodon.com)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 01:13:43 JST Matthew Loxton

     in reply to

     • Jeremy

     @jeromio
     I'm a Progressive, I frankly didn't give a shit what reasons Harris/Walz gave, but they gave a ton. Going after price gougers, huge infrastructure investment, securing women's health, etc. PLENTY stuff that would be great reasons.

     But again, even if they had simply said, "we aren't *that*", my mission would have been clear. I defy anyone calling themselves "progressive" to be faced with a choice of "not appealing" and "fucking terrible" and saying "meh, I'll take the default"

   • Embed this notice
     Jeremy (jeromio@triangletoot.party)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 01:13:44 JST Jeremy

     in reply to

     • mekka okereke :verified:
     • Matthew Loxton
     • P J Evans

     @mloxton @johnmark @PJ_Evans @mekkaokereke
     The DNC messaging was "vote for Harris *instead* of Trump. It should been "Here's *why* you need to go to the polls and elect Harris: progressive, anti-oligarchy policies". Progressive voters had no reason to bother voting and that's why 15M didn't. It's always about turnout, but the sTRatEgiSts want to make it another mythical swing voter BS story

   • Embed this notice
     mekka okereke :verified: (mekkaokereke@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 01:30:54 JST mekka okereke :verified:

     in reply to

     • Matthew Loxton
     • Jeremy

     @mloxton @jeromio

     OK, last try before I give up...

     What people fail to understand, is that the experience for some Black men in the US is *already that bad*. They're already at the mercy of literal nazis. It doesn't get worse than already being falsely imprisoned and murdered.

     We are asking them to do an act to save ourselves, when we will not reciprocate and do a smaller act to save them.

     When I say that this is self-immolation while hugging their enemy, their enemy is not nazis. It's Dems

   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Loxton (mloxton@med-mastodon.com)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 01:30:55 JST Matthew Loxton

     in reply to

     • mekka okereke :verified:
     • Jeremy

     @mekkaokereke

     Right
     Same issue though
     When walking away gets you the Nazis, it is insane to take that option

     There are research games that explore this, and "costly punishment". If A offers B an "insulting" bid, although getting something is better than nothing, many B players "punish" A by rejecting the bid. That actually makes sense IF (1) there will be more rounds with A, and more importantly, the stakes are low. Neither are true here

     MANY people will die or be immiserated now

     @jeromio

   • Embed this notice
     mekka okereke :verified: (mekkaokereke@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 01:44:28 JST mekka okereke :verified:

     in reply to

     • Matthew Loxton

     @mloxton

     I explicitly said that Black men *will* experience worse outcomes.

     But the relative drop in freedom for a Black man under full fascism, is much less than the relative drop in freedom for a white Dem voter. And freedom from fascism for everyone else while you still live under fascism, does not feel good.

     I've said on here before, racism is just fascism practiced on Black people first.

     Like I said, this is not my position. I disagree with it. But it is not insane, stupid, or selfish.

   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Loxton (mloxton@med-mastodon.com)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 01:44:30 JST Matthew Loxton

     in reply to

     • mekka okereke :verified:

     @mekkaokereke
     Again, Mekka, I admire you, follow you, boost you, but on this topic we are never going to agree.

     I am unlikely to see this as anything other than a very costly gesture that is essentially irrational.

     I also disagree that Black men are not going to experience worse outcomes as a result. I think they are in fact very likely to see a big increase in risk and harm. The thing is though, the millions that walked away or made protest votes were not just Black men. Loads of white guys

   • Embed this notice
     mekka okereke :verified: (mekkaokereke@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 01:47:28 JST mekka okereke :verified:

     in reply to

     • Matthew Loxton

     @mloxton

     What's selfish is expecting someone to save you from fascism, without reciprocating the favor.

     Expecting to live in US luxury, while someone else lives under US fascism, is selfish.

     In 2028 there will be another election. Again, I will tell US Dem candidates not to do the "Fight the nazis! But also, I will use your vote to give power to those same nazis!🤡" I will say that most Black people will make a selfless decision, but about 10% of Black men (2 million voters) will say hells no

   • Embed this notice
     mekka okereke :verified: (mekkaokereke@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 01:57:40 JST mekka okereke :verified:

     in reply to

     • Matthew Loxton

     @mloxton

     I will again say that without that 10%, a Democratic candidate cannot win.

     And again, some people will make the arguments that you are making now: "I know it's unfair, but look that's just how it is! Black people just have to take it!" But they don't just have to take it. We need them to play more than they need us to play.

   • Embed this notice
     mekka okereke :verified: (mekkaokereke@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 02:00:51 JST mekka okereke :verified:

     in reply to

     • Matthew Loxton

     @mloxton

     It's not a protest vote.

     It's ensuring that what happens to Black men will also happen to white men and white women. It's eliminating the possibility of a split fate.

     Again, I don't agree with the strategy. But it is not insane, ableism aside.

     If a 2028 candidate asks for your advice, asking should they promise to work with MAGA, knowing now what you know about how this 10% of Black men voters would respond, what would you advise that candidate to do? Not rhetorical.

   • Embed this notice
     Matthew Loxton (mloxton@med-mastodon.com)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 02:00:52 JST Matthew Loxton

     in reply to

     • mekka okereke :verified:

     @mekkaokereke
     "The relative drop in freedom for a Black man under full fascism, is much less than the relative drop in freedom for a white Dem voter"

     Oh, for sure, and especially immigrant, female, or LGBTQ, and especially T.

     "racism is just fascism practiced on Black people first"
     100%
     Racism was just the opening foray and training exercise, like immigrants and Trans people will be.

     "it is not insane, stupid, or selfish"
     That is the bit where we part. Most of those protest votes were all 3

     mekka okereke :verified: repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     🤖 Lazaro el dog (lazarodtormes@mastodon.social)'s status on Friday, 08-Nov-2024 02:22:17 JST 🤖 Lazaro el dog

     in reply to

     • mekka okereke :verified:
     • Matthew Loxton

     @mloxton @mekkaokereke

     This is a great discussion and I think you both are making great and true points.

     I think you two are disagreeing mainly because you have two fundamentally different experiences of the current state of US society, and that's because one of you is black and the other one is white, and that is like living in two different planets in the US.