@lucy@netzsphaere.xyz we still have some democracy left. future's not looking good, but still
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kurimu@mk.absturztau.be's status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 17:36:32 JST 
kurimu
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SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 17:36:28 JST 
SuperDicq
@lucy@netzsphaere.xyz @kurimu@mk.absturztau.be look at what people vote for and tell me again that what they need is more democracy.Look at what people vote for? I'd say the USA needs a little more democracy than choosing between a Giant Douche and a Turd Sandwich every four years.
Of course the results are going to suck if you're going to organize a winner takes all race and these are your options. -
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:blobcatflower: (methyltheobromine@netzsphaere.xyz)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 17:36:29 JST
:blobcatflower:
@kurimu look at what people vote for and tell me again that what they need is more democracy. what people need is to stop being retarded pissheads voting against imaginary strawmen to keep awful people in power. Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: and iced depresso like this. -
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:blobcatflower: (methyltheobromine@netzsphaere.xyz)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 17:36:30 JST
:blobcatflower:
@kurimu democracy is dumb -
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SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 17:56:33 JST
SuperDicq
@lucy@netzsphaere.xyz @kurimu@mk.absturztau.be Saying "democracy sucks" because the current pseudo-democracy system doesn't actually give people good options is the most doomposting shit ever.
Think of ways to do actual democracy, like abolishing the electoral college, forcing the two main parties to split into smaller parties, introducing binding referendums, etc.
Or if you're more hardcore: Fully abolishing representative "democracy" altogether, removing the cult personality and switching to a system of direct and/or liquid democracy. -
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lainy (lain@lain.com)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 18:03:15 JST 
lainy
@lucy @SuperDicq @kurimu hoping for a europe of a 1000 liechtensteins kaia likes this. -
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:blobcatflower: (methyltheobromine@netzsphaere.xyz)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 18:03:17 JST
:blobcatflower:
@SuperDicq @kurimu > Fully abolishing representative “democracy”
great idea ngl.
also balkanization might help a lot to fix this. -
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iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 18:04:42 JST 
iced depresso
@SuperDicq @lucy @kurimu why do you think abolishing the electoral college will improve democracy
do you know what that system actually does -
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lainy (lain@lain.com)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 18:05:52 JST
lainy
@lucy @SuperDicq @kurimu yeah of course it wasn't ironic. If all those american metrolises where just free cities, they could all vote for their lefty candidate and the rest of the country could vote for their righty candidate and all would be happy. there's zero reason why bavaria should have the same chancellor as saxony -
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:blobcatflower: (methyltheobromine@netzsphaere.xyz)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 18:05:53 JST
:blobcatflower:
@lain @SuperDicq @kurimu unironically YES PLEASE -
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SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 18:11:49 JST
SuperDicq
@icedquinn@blob.cat @lucy@netzsphaere.xyz @kurimu@mk.absturztau.be I know exactly what the electoral college does; it enables gerrymandering, enables a winner takes all system, puts the entire election in the hands of a handful of swing-states and makes it so that a Wyoming vote is worth 4 times as much as a California vote.
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iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 18:16:25 JST
iced depresso
@SuperDicq so you actually don't understand it at all then :blobcatderpy:
> makes it so that a Wyoming vote is worth 4 times as much as a California vote.
> California: 52 seats
> Wyoming: 3 seats
:blobcatgoogly: math
> gerrymandering
the college has no opinion on how votes are apportioned
> winner take all
absolute falsity please have your brain serviced https://apnews.com/article/nebraska-maine-president-electoral-votes-district-omaha-90382054c29f546fd65a7e7cc5094801
> puts the entire election in the hands of a handful of swing-states
this is literally just because the demographics in those states stays relatively fixed. swing states are ones where high amounts of both parties tend to live and be politically active.
@lucy @kurimu -
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SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 18:16:44 JST
SuperDicq
@icedquinn@blob.cat @lucy@netzsphaere.xyz @kurimu@mk.absturztau.be I hope you realize most other countries don't do this, and for good reason.
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SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 18:22:01 JST
SuperDicq
@icedquinn@blob.cat @lucy@netzsphaere.xyz @kurimu@mk.absturztau.be makes it so that a Wyoming vote is worth 4 times as much as a California vote.California: 52 seats
Wyoming: 3 seats
:blobcatgoogly: mathIn California there are 800k people represented by one electoral vote, while in Wyoming there are only 200k people represented by one electoral vote. You're the one who doesn't understand math.
Also, abolishing the electoral college is not an unpopular opinion. -
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SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 18:24:05 JST
SuperDicq
@icedquinn@blob.cat @lucy@netzsphaere.xyz @kurimu@mk.absturztau.be Just because a small amount of states do something else does not mean that "winner takes all" is still the norm in most other states.
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SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 18:26:48 JST
SuperDicq
@icedquinn@blob.cat @lucy@netzsphaere.xyz @kurimu@mk.absturztau.be Also the fact that you can win the election while losing the popular vote is absolutely nuts.
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iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 18:26:54 JST
iced depresso
@SuperDicq goal post move: the exception proves the system is not enforcing the behavior.
@lucy @kurimu -
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iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 18:27:44 JST
iced depresso
@SuperDicq @kurimu @lucy there is an argument to be made congress is too small. the 500-something seats have not scaled well since the colonial period and i agree with this in practice. -
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SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 18:28:05 JST
SuperDicq
@icedquinn@blob.cat @lucy@netzsphaere.xyz @kurimu@mk.absturztau.be No, you get me wrong. I believe that "winner takes all" should not be possible even if a state wants that.
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iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 18:29:35 JST
iced depresso
@SuperDicq @lucy @kurimu we're a confederacy/federation. states actually get some semblance of autonomy here. -
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iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 18:32:13 JST
iced depresso
@naruciakk correct. the only thing that controls your electoral college credits is the relative population of your state.
i had to re-check this part but its based in part on the maximum size of congress, which is why it doesn't have a perfect ratio to population.
@SuperDicq @kurimu @lucy -
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Robert von Oliva (naruciakk@ak.kawen.space)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 18:32:15 JST 
Robert von Oliva
@SuperDicq @icedquinn @lucy @kurimu Akshually, Electoral College doesn't enable gerrymandering, as it operates (mostly, Nebraska and Maine doesn't count that much) for the boundaries of states, which I'm pretty sure were not created to give any party an advantage (even if they ended up as such, but these are just changes in the electorate). -
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SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 18:33:28 JST
SuperDicq
@naruciakk@ak.kawen.space @lain@lain.com @kurimu@mk.absturztau.be @lucy@netzsphaere.xyz I might be European criticizing American "democracy" but before we go into this discussion I just want to say that I do not think the European Union is very democratic either.
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Robert von Oliva (naruciakk@ak.kawen.space)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 18:33:29 JST
Robert von Oliva
@lain @SuperDicq @kurimu @lucy The point IMO could be that even if in a current geopolitical scenario Europe of 1000 Liechtensteins would not be realistically possible, the greater decentralization is. Ok, something something army and security, sure + basic freedoms guaranteed on the European/federal/national level etc., but for most of the issues the decentralized structure would simply comply more to the electorate. -
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lainy (lain@lain.com)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 18:34:05 JST
lainy
@naruciakk @SuperDicq @kurimu @lucy it'd already be much better if there were not eu states with more than ~10 million people and all the cities over ~1 million were free cities -
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iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 18:35:33 JST
iced depresso
@naruciakk @SuperDicq @kurimu @lucy i don't think its a flawless system but it has to be understood in the context that its basically assigning a limitation of influence on a state, and then turning over all particulars of the process to the state.
if a state wishes to just literally fucking sortition a candidate--it can do that. would it be retarded? probably! but they can do it. the federation doesn't decide how people do their shit, only how much influence they're mandated with.
i don't believe it solves the fundamental issue of one or two hive cities controlling entire states (something a popular vote does), but it wasn't really meant to do that so much as when we created it there were still arguments over who should be entitled to vote or not -
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Robert von Oliva (naruciakk@ak.kawen.space)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 18:35:34 JST
Robert von Oliva
@SuperDicq @icedquinn @kurimu @lucy And EC is simply a regressive proportionality mechanism, sure, the winner-takes-all approach in states should probably change (and that would eliminate the problem of swing states), but overall regressive proportionality of some kind is not uncommon in federal structures (US has it in EC and the Senate, EU has it in Council of the EU and the number of representatives each country has in EP, Germany has it in Bundesrat etc.) -
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SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 18:36:17 JST
SuperDicq
@naruciakk@ak.kawen.space @icedquinn@blob.cat @lucy@netzsphaere.xyz @kurimu@mk.absturztau.be If you abolished the electoral college and just went with popular vote there would be no discussion if gerrymandering is real or not, because it can't exist.
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iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 21:33:03 JST
iced depresso
@naruciakk @SuperDicq @kurimu @lucy redistricting is a shit and i wish we'd do it in some objective algorithmic way -
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Robert von Oliva (naruciakk@ak.kawen.space)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 21:33:05 JST
Robert von Oliva
@SuperDicq @icedquinn @kurimu @lucy Like, oh shit, if you want to say something about US politics, please first obsess about that for a while and learn everything you can about it in strange details, because it is quite annoying to describe such basics. Do your homework pls -
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Robert von Oliva (naruciakk@ak.kawen.space)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 21:33:06 JST
Robert von Oliva
@SuperDicq @icedquinn @lucy @kurimu Do you even know what gerrymandering is? Or that there is something called US Congress, with US House of Representatives, which is completely independently voted for, regardless of the system that POTUS election is based on? And for this chamber, you have 435 first-past-the-post voting districts and THESE districts (and the ones to state congresses, these exist too!) are gerrymandered. -
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lainy (lain@lain.com)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 21:37:11 JST
lainy
@icedquinn @naruciakk @SuperDicq @kurimu @lucy i think the very existence of gerrymandering already destroys the whole edifice of 'voting districts'. it's not obvious at all why a district that is 50/50 is preferable to one that's 60/40 and 'safe'. if a 60/40 district happened 'naturally', would it have to be re-districted? either way, it's all a farce. Pissed Hippo likes this. -
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iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 21:38:55 JST
iced depresso
@lain someone made a computer simulation of this and he found that gerrymandering simulates voter fraud without having to be bothered to do all the fraud.
they redraw the lines all the time hoping they can cut it in such a way that the rounding errors clip out the opposing party.
@naruciakk @SuperDicq @kurimu @lucyPissed Hippo likes this. -
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Pissed Hippo (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 21:40:26 JST 
Pissed Hippo
@icedquinn @naruciakk @lain @SuperDicq @kurimu @lucy I saw something once that claimed that yeah it can be done algorithmically in a way that is "fair" but I suspect that "fair" is too fair for a country where not privileging a few specific groups is considered "unfair" -
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iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 21:42:06 JST
iced depresso
@sun you can do it with just a simple voronoi generator but you have to choose what feature is going to result in centroids. mine was court houses.
you could probably generate them with a quasirandom algorithm as well.
@naruciakk @lain @SuperDicq @kurimu @lucyPissed Hippo likes this. -
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iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 21:46:15 JST
iced depresso
@sun @SuperDicq @kurimu @lain @lucy @naruciakk there is ultimately a flaw in that congress is just too small. 500-something seats was not such a problem when the colonies were founded but it represents to dilute a representation now.
like superdicq noted it results in some bizzare constrained proportioning where a state with sixty times the population doesn't have sixty times the influence nodes -
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iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Nov-2024 21:47:22 JST
iced depresso
@SuperDicq @kurimu @lain @lucy @naruciakk @sun although there is the other flaw that we were designed with the assumption that state reps would be fighting for a state's self interest. we officially do not recognize parties and so party line politics kind of fucks up the process. Pissed Hippo likes this.
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