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cybersyn is such a wild thing
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also unfortunate to remember that shannon was all about the internet for the purpose of controlling the world under the guise of 'global emergencies.'
the DOD's internet was always to control everyone. :neocat_what:
cybersyn also did this, though the designers seemed adamant this was not its purpose. :blobcatwaitwhat:
life is strange
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readling about Real Socialism is always the most wild shit.
i don't mean the nanny state capitalism that europeans call socialism. i mean like. the people that actually tried to go right up and stab economics in the eye :blobcatdizzy:
some of those attempts almost [but didn't] work
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@icedquinn Reading about what the soviet union accomplished is impressive even if it came with things I found detestable.
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@sun chile built a fuckin internet in the 1970s and tried to get the AI to run it :cirno_for_reals:
ok it was just a management council based on a lot of statistical models, but holy shit.
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@icedquinn I heard about that, I think it didn't actually work worth a damn though.
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@sun the cia overthrew the country before they could use it for more than a couple months lmfao
apparently they used it to partially mitigate the cia's previous attempt at an economic coup
this is where i started joking about the CIA fears the AGI from
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@sun i kind of get it though. the playbook they actually handed out was to encourage people to create intentionally bad management and work ethos. and cybersyn directly monitored exactly this kind of shit.
i'm not sure if they knew this was a thing but i can see why a technology group adamant about personal autonomy building a spyglass machine would make spooks extremely unhappy
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@jeffcliff @sun the ussr was an extremely authoritarian hellhole.
it just can't be said they didn't seriously attempt to make communism work--which can't be said of most everyone else.
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@sun @icedquinn did you see my post about the alma-ata dam?
it's probably the epitome of the 'we only get credit for things we do not disasters we prevent' problem in engineering / security - the ussr (and to a greater extent, kazakhstan) deserves far more credit for it than it ever got
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@s8n @icedquinn @jeffcliff it's probably more possible now than ever, my main objection is I don't believe it could have been done in the 70s (or the 80s, and probably not most of the 90s)
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@icedquinn @jeffcliff @sun you can't run a country top-down because the people at the top are the worst and stupidest always. The people who are the most skilled and best fit for leading the country spend all their time having fun and doing what they want to because they can navigate all challenges without needing to rise to the top
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@s8n @icedquinn @jeffcliff everything still ran on paper in the 80s.
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@sun @s8n @jeffcliff the developers of cybersyn seem to be adamant it they wanted it to become autonomous.
they are either deluded, or the central oversight committee was an implementation detail of the time.
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@icedquinn @s8n @jeffcliff maybe they were doing the most ambitious thing they could and then adding to it as they went along.
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@sun @jeffcliff @s8n edge computing did not exist in the 70s, nor did packet switched networking, so they were stuck with telex machines and a spare mainframe found lying by the side of the road. the whole thing was apparently built out of spare parts and cost like 20k$ of modern monies to put together.
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@icedquinn @s8n @jeffcliff tbh it sounds like chile got scammed.
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@icedquinn @jeffcliff @sun that was the 8chan experiment at the time as well
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@s8n @jeffcliff @sun
> The principal architect of the system was British operations research scientist Stafford Beer, and the system embodied his notions of organisational cybernetics in industrial management. One of its main objectives was to devolve decision-making power within industrial enterprises to their workforce to develop self-regulation of factories.
> After the military coup on 1973-09-11, Cybersyn was abandoned, and the operations room was destroyed.
everything to do with these people is just bizzare. they aren't your usual commie types. they're like.. computational biology types.
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@s8n @icedquinn @jeffcliff after seeing how algorithmic stablecoins work on blockchain, I am certain that any "autonomous" system in reality needs circuit breakers and the ability for a single person to override when it goes sideways.
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@icedquinn @jeffcliff @sun we proved it was impossible but it wasn't worth writing up. The system cannot handle exceptions without a benevolent dictator, and we believed that it was impossible for any system to ever handle exceptions in any way except randomly without the benevolent dictator
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@icedquinn @jeffcliff @sun and btw no just letting the randomness handle it doesn't work because it's instant gamification of the system which results in a long tail distribution of power immediately
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@sun @s8n @icedquinn @jeffcliff you can't solve the economic calculation problem no matter how good the computers are. you can almost solve the knowledge problem if you build a totalitarian panopticon with computers, but not the economic calculation problem.
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@goatmeal @s8n @jeffcliff @sun economics are the downstream results of decision-making actors, so of course nothing keysnian will *ever* work.
iced depresso
Sick Sun
Jeff "never puts away anything, especially oven mitts" Cliff, Bringer of Nightmares 🏴☠️🦝🐙 🇱🇧🧯 🇨🇦🐧
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