Stefan Bohacek
CEO of Meta, which recently joined the newly founded #SocialWebFoundation, suggests that there is "no causal connection" between social media and teen mental health.
https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/25/24254044/mark-zuckerberg-meta-social-media-teen-mental-health
#news #TechNews #SocialMedia #MentalHealth #meta #facebook #threads #zuckerberg
Stefan Bohacek
CEO of Meta, which recently joined the newly founded #SocialWebFoundation, thinks that "individual creators or publishers tend to overestimate the value of their specific content".
https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/25/24254042/mark-zuckerberg-creators-value-ai-meta
#news #TechNews #SocialMedia #meta #facebook #threads #zuckerberg #AI
Stefan Bohacek
Meta, which recently joined the newly founded #SocialWebFoundation, "cut 21,000 jobs, including in trust and safety and customer service, over multiple rounds of layoffs", leading state and local officials "puzzled by what to expect from Facebook" around voting misinformation.
#news #TechNews #SocialMedia #meta #facebook
Evan Prodromou
@wendinoakland @stefan hey, Wendy. Actually, we are a big part of the Fediverse. You know me, of course, but you also know a lot of the open source projects, non-profits, and companies listed as supporters on https://socialwebfoundation.org/. Not everyone on the Fediverse is there, but I think everyone on the Fediverse can benefit from what we do.
wendinoakland
@stefan isn’t the #SocialWebFoundation looking to snuggle up real close to the #fediverse?
Evan Prodromou
@stefan @wendinoakland so, I think this is really important. I think everyone on the Fediverse should have the choice between connecting to their friends, family, colleagues and neighbours on commercial social networks from the platform they prefer, or staying isolated from those commercial providers and the people who use them. That autonomy fundamental; nobody can force you to connect with anyone you don't want to.
Stefan Bohacek
But really, we don't know yet what this new group will be able to do and achieve. ActivityPub is still overseen by W3C, as far as I know.
And when they can infiltrate that?
Well, the fediverse is vast. There'll always be servers and platforms free from the influence of corporate social media companies. We'll keep moving to stay ahead of it.
We'll be fine.
Stefan Bohacek
@wendinoakland @evan "honestly concerned"
We shouldn't be.
When Threads was announced and people started to panic about Meta taking over, I wasn't too concerned. I thought, they're scared, they see the future, and they're not in it, so they must act.
I did start to get concerned after this new effort was announced and Meta was listed as a partner. It's one thing to have Meta start using technology that's free for everyone. It's a whole other story when they attempt to influence it.
wendinoakland
@evan @stefan Yes, I do, and I’m honestly concerned. I fear that meta, with its extremely lenient moderation, tolerant of thinly veiled racism, sexism, otherism of the most profound kind, and tuned to magnifying algorithms, will potentially harm some of the people most precious to me in this noncommercial fediverse. Please try to understand my reservations…
Evan Prodromou
@stefan @wendinoakland I also disagree that Meta can be a part of this network without influencing it. I don't think that's how social systems work. But I hope that we can take good things from Meta and leave the bad things.
Evan Prodromou
@stefan @wendinoakland one example is reply control. Users on Threads can say who can reply to their posts; users on Mastodon can't. There have been some proposals in this area over the years, and they haven't stuck yet. I think this is a great feature for user safety, if it can be balanced with freedom of expression (I like UIs that emphasize approved replies, but still allow access to other replies).
Evan Prodromou
@stefan @wendinoakland In terms of people with high vulnerability, I absolutely recommend using the defederation feature and blocking early. It's better to play it safe. fedipact.online is a good resource for finding servers that block Threads.
Evan Prodromou
@stefan @wendinoakland I also think that lowering the social cost of moving to a Free Software service is key to increasing usage. If you move to a Mastodon server and you have zero connections to your existing friends and family, you are probably going to churn out. Starting a whole new set of social connections from zero is a skill that only a minority of humans have.
Evan Prodromou
@wendinoakland @stefan are you sure? I don't think Threads has features to do that yet.
wendinoakland
@evan @stefan I know, only from being told so, that plenty of fedi users are hit with racism, otherism, and the like. I’ve seen trolling and gatekeeping, but this goes deeper, into users’ mentions, where victims are attacked in private. It’s absolutely not ok.
Evan Prodromou
@stefan @wendinoakland I want people who have Franklin Street Statement servers to be able to keep them for the long term.
https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Franklin_Street_Statement_on_Freedom_and_Network_Services
Evan Prodromou
@stefan @wendinoakland Stefan, I wonder for you what signals you might see a year from now, in terms of processes and programs, that would make you feel more or less concerned about the SWF?
Evan Prodromou
@stefan @wendinoakland you and I agree, mostly. I'm part of a cooperative instance, and I want our collective to thrive.
I also think it's great that companies have to engage with the Fediverse now. We have a powerful model and a powerful movement and they can't ignore us any more.
Stefan Bohacek
@evan @wendinoakland But that's all I have to say on this topic. I've said on a few occasions that my single-user server is the last social media website I'll sign up for, and I'll stand by that.
Meta trying to co-opt it and subvert it was to be expected. I still believe we as a community can resist that. It's just disappointing to see so many not willing to even try.
Stefan Bohacek
"disagree that Meta can be a part of this network without influencing it"
Right, to a certain degree, sure.
But, at least from my perspective, I can't help but wonder, how are the other companies and organizations comfortable with their logos and names appearing right next to Meta's, given their history.
Evan Prodromou
@stefan @wendinoakland also, I really hope this is *not* your last word on the topic. You have a valuable perspective that I really appreciate, and skill with communicating it. In particular, I think your writings on how new implementers should engage with the Fediverse are important.
Evan Prodromou
@stefan @wendinoakland this is such a good point. I think that ad-supported instances exist, and that is kind of between the users there and the service providers, as long as the users have the choice to leave and take their data and connections.
Stefan Bohacek
@evan @wendinoakland I fully expect to see ad support on a protocol level, at some point, and perhaps that's even fine, depending on the implementation. If done right, this can help some servers keep up with the costs.
My concern is that that will not be where Meta's influence will end, and that's something that will take more than a year to fully reveal itself.
Stefan Bohacek
@evan @wendinoakland SWF has its problems covered in other threads discussing it, and to be honest, I'm less concerned about those.
My problem is specifically with Meta being welcome to directly influence the fediverse.
Evan Prodromou
@stefan @wendinoakland putting ads into the streams that go *between* instances is a much bigger deal.
My instinct is that it just shouldn't happen. However, I could imagine some people on the Fediverse might want the choice to follow an ad-supported account.
Evan Prodromou
If there are going to be ads on some streams, I'd want them clearly marked at the protocol level, so they can easily be filtered by the recipient, and treated differently than other content (for example, not put into search results or the fediverse feed).
I'd probably also want a flag on the account to show that it is ad-supported, so followers are informed before they follow.
Evan Prodromou
@stefan @wendinoakland but honestly, I think there are more important things to work on.
Evan Prodromou
@puppygirlhornypost2 @stefan @wendinoakland yes, we are going to talk to developers about it and come up with guidelines and maybe an ActivityPub extension for long text.
> Why are we focusing on this when we have other issues to worry about.
Ooh, good question. If you were setting priorities for a Fediverse-related non-profit, what 2-3 projects would you want it to work on in the first year?
Amber
@stefan@stefanbohacek.online @evan@cosocial.ca @wendinoakland@beige.party Meta by itself is not a significant enough threat, but the fact is that Mastodon is also in this foundation. These are some pretty big names with a large amount of funding and influence on the web. I am fearful that their influence will sway the conversations on what fedi needs overall. If we go to one of their missions https://socialwebfoundation.org/long-form-text-on-the-fediverse/ this is a pretty low priority in my opinion. for this project, the Social Web Foundation will convene implementers and other stakeholders for a long-form text workshop to discuss data structures, interactions, and page formats.What does that mean? Are they going to go around asking instance software developers about this? Are they going to ask themselves about this? Why are we focusing on this when we have other issues to worry about. I am worried about the implication that these underlying issues will be drowned out with features that are niceties at best, and unwanted at worst. I've seen how tumblr was so successful at building a facade over their decaying infrastructure. How https://www.engadget.com/big-tech/meta-fined-102-million-for-storing-passwords-in-plain-text-110049679.html meta was storing things in plaintext pretending everything was okay. I don't want issues like forwarded reports to be swept under the rug and not given proper attention because the people up top are more focused on making it a content distribution platform for stakeholders.
RE: https://transfem.social/notes/9yq1pladclg00029
Amber
@stefan@stefanbohacek.online @evan@cosocial.ca @wendinoakland@beige.party I'm more concerned about the triplet Meta, Automattic and Medium.
Evan Prodromou
@puppygirlhornypost2 @stefan @wendinoakland that's not *entirely* the case -- we mention blocking incoming content in the non-normative appendix -- but I get your point.
Amber
@evan@cosocial.ca @stefan@stefanbohacek.online @wendinoakland@beige.party To come back to this, defederations are not defined by the standard. There's no standard behavior for what should be done when an instance defederates from another. Mastodon severs all the following/follower relations during a defed, misskey (and sharkey forks) do not, allowing for defederations to be reversible. It'd be nice to sit down and come up with what a defederation looks like and how it should be implemented. Personally I don't think that all defeds should sever the connection (so perhaps defining "Soft defed" would be a useful thing to do in this case)
Amber
@evan@cosocial.ca @stefan@stefanbohacek.online @wendinoakland@beige.party Moderation tooling honestly, we're missing a lot of things on this platform.
Evan Prodromou
@stefan @wendinoakland I think the Fediverse is worth fighting for. I'm glad that so many other people do, too.
Stefan Bohacek
@evan @wendinoakland Thank you, I appreciate you saying that. And that you're engaging with critics, as far as I can tell, in good faith.
Nothing is set in stone yet, and conversations like these are crucial, even if they're difficult, and can easily get emotional. I'm sure you understand that everyone speaking up does it out of love and care for something you've helped create.
Evan Prodromou
@stefan @wendinoakland yes, I have read this many times.
Stefan Bohacek
@evan @wendinoakland But for me, the bottom line is, welcoming Meta is a huge mistake given their impact on the world, and disrespectful to all those who want the fediverse to succeed.
When Threads were announced, I was on the fence about whether to federate with them. I understood the benefits. With memories of their deeds slowly fading, I was willing to "see and wait".
Stefan Bohacek
@evan @wendinoakland I highly recommend reading this article, if you haven't yet. After putting everything in context, I just could not justify being anywhere near that company.
https://erinkissane.com/untangling-threads
And just to add, --
"great that companies have to engage with the Fediverse"
Absolutely, this probably feels like a huge validation of your work, and those of everyone involved.
I just want it done on our community's terms.
Evan Prodromou
@stefan @wendinoakland I mean, did *you* read it?
I think she pretty clearly recapitulates my point, that coming to the Fediverse and starting a brand new social graph is something only a few people are going to do.
Changing the way social platforms work is of utmost urgency, for all the reasons Erin points out. I don't think keeping the Fediverse small and pure accomplishes that.
Stefan Bohacek
@evan @wendinoakland Right. And that means that you didn't feel that this behavior should exclude a company or an organization from participating in SWF?
To me, doing so would be on the same level as excluding a country from the Olympics, while allowing that country's athletes to compete as "neutrals".
I understand wanting everyone to have their say, but this looks like condoning their actions.
Evan Prodromou
@stefan @wendinoakland so, you're not willing to take a chance with having any Meta social networks open via ActivityPub?
Like, for anyone?
Stefan Bohacek
@evan @wendinoakland Just to clarify, I see "should we federate with Threads" and "should Meta have a direct influence on the fediverse" as two separate questions.
Given the ongoing issues of harassment mainly towards Black people, women, and independent creators, I am actually willing to consider starting to federate with Threads, if that's where enough folks end up. (If they enable federation, that is.)
That's a personal choice that will only affect me, as I run my own server.
Stefan Bohacek
@evan @wendinoakland Now, having Meta influence the direction of the fediverse, that's something that will affect all of us. And I am, personally, not willing to take a chance with that.
But like I said, any impact of that level would likely take a while to materialize, so we just have to wait and see.
(And, well, continue to oppose it.)
Evan Prodromou
@stefan so, let's flip this idea around. With hundreds of millions of users each, Threads and Flipboard represent the vast majority of Fediverse users. The rest of us are a rounding error in that calculation.
Maintaining a connection to that big network is not guaranteed. There's no reason a group of ActivityPub implementers couldn't go to allowlist mode and just federate with the handful of services that make up the majority of user accounts on the network.
Evan Prodromou
@stefan keeping that majority of the network available to all who want to connect means enshrining Fediverse values of openness into institutions that influence the network -- like, say, a nonprofit.
Anil Dash
@stefan @evan @wendinoakland fwiw I don’t think there’s a credible path of non-engagement as long as hundreds of millions of well-intentioned users are involved. We have to pursue harm reduction for them even as we push to hold meta accountable; if we follow the analogy of email or podcasts, there are absolutely vendors in both those spaces profiteering grom fascism. Yet we need those formats to be open.
Evan Prodromou
@stefan I am saying that I would prefer to use whatever influence I have to guide the future of the social web to be open and accessible to individual/independent instances.
Stefan Bohacek
@evan Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but are you suggesting that not allowing Meta to be part of SWF or being allowed to influence the ActivityPub spec, and other parts of the fediverse, might result in them either giving up on integrating AP in Threads, or not federating with certain servers in retaliation?
If so, that would be a fair point, but then that also suggests that they're free to do whatever they want, with our community not standing up.
Then they already won.
Evan Prodromou
@stefan so, when we say "influence on the network" here, I don't think you mean that there would be no impact whatsoever of having Threads implement ActivityPub, right?
That seems unlikely. Every node on the network has an impact on the network, at the technical and human level, however small.
I think what you're saying is that you don't want them to have any influence on the ActivityPub standard itself?
And I want to check: do you mean *no* influence, or just no *bad* influence?
Evan Prodromou
@stefan so far? No. They've been great, super helpful, the Policy team has held consultations with hundreds of people in the Fediverse. I and others have spent time answering questions and providing support to their technical team. They come to events like Fediforum.
Stefan Bohacek
@evan Fair enough.
And sorry to put you on the spot like this, but let me ask you, is there anything Meta, or their leadership could do that would warrant their expulsion from SWF?
Evan Prodromou
@puppygirlhornypost2 @stefan no, it's "*they* might choose not to federate with *you*, or anyone except a small set of allowlisted servers, and then you're cut off from the network and you also don't have a voice in how the network grows."
Amber
@stefan@stefanbohacek.online @evan@cosocial.ca I read this more of "You can choose not to federate with them but you'll be isolated from the rest of the network".
Evan Prodromou
@stefan I don't think it makes sense to truck in hypotheticals.
I appreciate this conversation with you, and I hope you feel free to contact me again in the future.
Stefan Bohacek
@evan What if, to use an absurd example to make a point, what if Meta starts to allow CSAM on Threads? Would they be kicked off SWF?
I just wonder, going back to my example with the Olympics, why not accept contributions from trustworthy individuals without *seemingly* condoning actions of their employer?
Stefan Bohacek
@evan Right, let me rephrase.
None of Meta's actions listed in Erin's article were deal breakers preventing Meta from joining SWF. Perhaps it's because the technical expertise of the engineers who are directly involved is more important than decisions taken by the company's leadership, who are not. Maybe they even stood up against the leadership, unsuccessfully.
Fair.
Evan Prodromou
@gavin57 @stefan I'm here to let people connect with full autonomy. It's of critical importance as humanity faces a century of crisis.
Having one perfectly pure tiny network is not interesting to me. I want the whole world to be able to connect to anyone else via ActivityPub using the platform of their choice.
If you want to be isolated, I will always support that. You should absolutely have the tools to do it -- block lists or allowlist networking.
Gavin
@evan @stefan Then let us be a rounding error.
Many of us are on the fediverse because we want absolutely nothing to do with Meta or any of its metastases.
Their involvement in SWF is a line that should never be crossed. The same goes for X.
Evan Prodromou
Because Threads have the ActivityPub installation with the most people (although because Threads is opt-in I think Flipboard has more active accounts).
The parent company Meta also controls the biggest social networks on the planet, with billions of users.
Gavin
@evan @stefan If connecting people safely is important, this still begs the question —why Meta, of all companies.
It would be like inviting Lockheed Martin to sponsor Woodstock.
Tim Chambers
@anildash @stefan @evan @wendinoakland
Well put, Anil.
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