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1. Embed this notice
   Phoenix R&D (phoenix_r_d@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 07-Sep-2024 11:31:11 JST Phoenix R&D

   We are growing and #hiring a full-time and a freelance Senior Rust Engineer to help us build the next generation of private & secure messaging.
   The new Messaging Layer Security (MLS) protocol is at the core of our work. We are building a modern messaging application and technology stack based for a range of target groups.
   If you’re interested in joining our team, please apply today!

   For friends of secure messaging 🥷, please share our post with potential candidates.
   https://join.com/companies/phoenix

   • Embed this notice
     Raphael Robert (raphaelrobert@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 07-Sep-2024 11:31:05 JST Raphael Robert

     in reply to

     • Krille-chan

     @krille @phoenix_r_d We've been having extensive discussions about this in various IETF groups, with both Matrix and XMPP folks. We are very open to either adhering to existing standards or helping shape new ones. Sometimes you have to start fresh though, that's exactly what we did with MLS and MIMI. I don't see why this couldn't be repeated for s c2s protocol. Either way, join the working groups and propose your ideas!

     clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     silverpill (silverpill@mitra.social)'s status on Saturday, 07-Sep-2024 11:31:05 JST silverpill

     in reply to

     • Raphael Robert
     • Krille-chan

     @raphaelrobert @phoenix_r_d @krille Is ActivityPub still being considered for MIMI?

     https://bifurcation.github.io/mimi-aim/draft-barnes-mimi-aim.html

     It is a mature and widely used standard, but at the same time it's a blank slate because it doesn't have e2ee layer yet. Seems like a perfect foundation for developing a next generation of private & secure messaging.

   • Embed this notice
     Krille-chan (krille@troet.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 07-Sep-2024 11:31:07 JST Krille-chan

     in reply to

     • Raphael Robert

     @raphaelrobert @phoenix_r_d or help xmpp. At its core it is very minimal and flexible. You can invent new ways there to hide metadata, share it with the community, write XEPs and try to help everyone, adopting it.

     There ARE opportunities here. Of course starting from scratch makes more fun, but in the end you will run into the same walls, the others already ran again. Then you are forced to do compromises. And others will say, that you did bad decisions and they need to start from scratch

   • Embed this notice
     Raphael Robert (raphaelrobert@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 07-Sep-2024 11:31:08 JST Raphael Robert

     in reply to

     • Krille-chan

     @krille @phoenix_r_d Yes, neither the matrix protocol nor XMPP protect metadata well enough unfortunately.

     clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Krille-chan (krille@troet.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 07-Sep-2024 11:31:08 JST Krille-chan

     in reply to

     • Raphael Robert

     @raphaelrobert @phoenix_r_d

     I knew it. 🙄 the typical story: you think you can do it better than everyone else. Increase fragmentation instead of improving what already is available. Spoiler: everyone is thinking the same and in the end you will re-invent the weel over and over again instead of bringing us forward.

     If you want to hide metadata, just help Matrix with encrypted state events.

     If you want MLS, help Matrix with their shift to it (already planned but lacks resources)

   • Embed this notice
     Raphael Robert (raphaelrobert@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 07-Sep-2024 11:31:09 JST Raphael Robert

     in reply to

     • Krille-chan

     @krille @phoenix_r_d That’s why we helped start the IETF MIMI working group to get everyone around the table

     clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Krille-chan (krille@troet.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 07-Sep-2024 11:31:09 JST Krille-chan

     in reply to

     • Raphael Robert

     @raphaelrobert @phoenix_r_d That solves the federation-problem but let me guess you are going to implement a new c2s protocol instead of using Matrix, XMPP or whatever we already have?

   • Embed this notice
     Krille-chan (krille@troet.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 07-Sep-2024 11:31:11 JST Krille-chan

     in reply to

     @phoenix_r_d yet another chat protocol 🙄 reminds me of: https://xkcd.com/927/

   • Embed this notice
     Phoenix R&D (phoenix_r_d@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 07-Sep-2024 15:11:07 JST Phoenix R&D

     in reply to

     • Buster | Felipe

     @pitbuster Yes, we are open to candidates from outside the EU. Our only requirement is that you live in a place that is compatible with meetings during European working hours.

     clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Buster | Felipe (pitbuster@lile.cl)'s status on Saturday, 07-Sep-2024 15:11:08 JST Buster | Felipe

     in reply to

     @phoenix_r_d Are you open to non-EU candidates?

     clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Lutin Discret (lutindiscret@mastodon.libre-entreprise.com)'s status on Saturday, 07-Sep-2024 15:11:21 JST Lutin Discret

     in reply to

     • Delta Chat
     • Raphael Robert

     Hi @delta

     I wanted to be sure you are aware there are now multiple project to implement MLS in Rust. @raphaelrobert is working on OpenMLS at @phoenix_r_d. It's being adopted to implement DM in #nostr by @1739d937dc8c0c7370aa27585938c119e25c41f6c441a5d34c6d38503e3136ef

     clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Lutin Discret (lutindiscret@mastodon.libre-entreprise.com)'s status on Saturday, 07-Sep-2024 15:11:23 JST Lutin Discret

     in reply to

     • Raphael Robert

     @raphaelrobert you picked my interest, I will keep an eye on this.

   • Embed this notice
     Delta Chat (delta@chaos.social)'s status on Saturday, 07-Sep-2024 15:11:29 JST Delta Chat

     in reply to

     • Lutin Discret
     • Raphael Robert

     @lutindiscret @raphaelrobert @phoenix_r_d @1739d937dc8c0c7370aa27585938c119e25c41f6c441a5d34c6d38503e3136ef thanks for the pointer, and looking forward to see what comes out of the OpenMLS rust developments. We presume however it's not yet easy to use it in decentralized settings where group-membership is not strictly ordered. Or did that restriction change?

     clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Raphael Robert (raphaelrobert@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 07-Sep-2024 16:23:48 JST Raphael Robert

     in reply to

     • silverpill
     • Krille-chan

     @krille @silverpill @phoenix_r_d Not sure what you mean. Substantial parts of the MIMI protocol have been proposed by US, the matrix folks and the Wire folks. The IETF process is very transparent. Anyone can participate, either by just observing or actively contributing. All decisions and discussions are written down. That makes it easy to debunk false claims like yours :)

     clacke likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Krille-chan (krille@troet.cafe)'s status on Saturday, 07-Sep-2024 16:23:49 JST Krille-chan

     in reply to

     • silverpill
     • Raphael Robert

     @silverpill @raphaelrobert @phoenix_r_d mimi is not from the open source community but from the big vendors like Meta or Google. Don't expect something like activitypub from it 😝

   • Embed this notice
     silverpill (silverpill@mitra.social)'s status on Saturday, 07-Sep-2024 21:48:47 JST silverpill

     in reply to

     • Raphael Robert
     • Krille-chan

     @raphaelrobert @phoenix_r_d @krille Are you saying that draft-barnes-mimi-aim report is not serious? What is considered a serious proposal then?

   • Embed this notice
     Raphael Robert (raphaelrobert@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 07-Sep-2024 21:48:48 JST Raphael Robert

     in reply to

     • silverpill
     • Krille-chan

     @silverpill @phoenix_r_d @krille No, and I don’t remember that it ever was seriously proposed.
     The MIMI documents are here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/mimi/documents/

   • Embed this notice
     silverpill (silverpill@mitra.social)'s status on Saturday, 07-Sep-2024 22:10:48 JST silverpill

     in reply to

     • Bonkers
     • Raphael Robert
     • Krille-chan

     @bonkers @raphaelrobert @phoenix_r_d @krille Do you know some other social protocol that organically grew to support millions of users and has more than a hundred of implementations? This is how a well designed protocol looks like.

   • Embed this notice
     Bonkers (bonkers@nerdculture.de)'s status on Saturday, 07-Sep-2024 22:10:50 JST Bonkers

     in reply to

     • silverpill
     • Raphael Robert
     • Krille-chan

     @silverpill @raphaelrobert @phoenix_r_d @krille ActivityPub is actually a poorly designed protocol. Seems like there were no senior engineers in the team at the time of making it. And now it's too late.