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  1. Embed this notice
    Fish of Rage (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 04:42:26 JST Fish of Rage Fish of Rage
    • LisPi
    • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
    @lispi314 @vr-t8x15 I can probably never do Java again but it's so simple to pick up that I think it's valuable at least as a beginner language.
    In conversation about 11 months ago from shitposter.world permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Fish of Rage (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 04:42:58 JST Fish of Rage Fish of Rage
      in reply to
      • LisPi
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @lispi314 @vr-t8x15 I'll learn Scala eventually
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      VR-T8X15 (Artemis) (vr-t8x15@social.xenofem.me)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 04:43:08 JST VR-T8X15 (Artemis) VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      in reply to
      • LisPi
      @sun @lispi314 C++ was my first "real" language (after TI-BASIC and FORTRAN)
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
      Fish of Rage likes this.
    • Embed this notice
      Fish of Rage (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 04:43:47 JST Fish of Rage Fish of Rage
      in reply to
      • LisPi
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @vr-t8x15 @lispi314 I still consider myself a "Java programmer" because I started with pre-1.0 beta in 1995 and didn't put it down until about three years ago.
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      feld (feld@bikeshed.party)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 04:44:29 JST feld feld
      in reply to
      • LisPi
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @sun @vr-t8x15 @lispi314 Java as a beginner language?
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Fish of Rage (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 04:44:29 JST Fish of Rage Fish of Rage
      in reply to
      • feld
      • LisPi
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @feld @vr-t8x15 @lispi314 its used as an introductory course language in several universities
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      LisPi (lispi314@udongein.xyz)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 04:44:36 JST LisPi LisPi
      in reply to
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @vr-t8x15 @sun Scala is pretty much what Java should have been.

      Unfortunately, the implementation has /problems/ (the tooling is a hot flakey mess).
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
      Fish of Rage likes this.
    • Embed this notice
      Fish of Rage (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 04:45:40 JST Fish of Rage Fish of Rage
      in reply to
      • feld
      • LisPi
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @feld @lispi314 @vr-t8x15 what do you guys think about just starting people with a lisp with immutable data structures and just naturally exclude people that can't hack it
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Fish of Rage (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 04:46:15 JST Fish of Rage Fish of Rage
      in reply to
      • feld
      • LisPi
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @feld @vr-t8x15 @lispi314 enterprise java is godawful but when I did projects on my own they were small and beautiful
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      feld (feld@bikeshed.party)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 04:46:16 JST feld feld
      in reply to
      • LisPi
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @sun @vr-t8x15 @lispi314 yeah, they had that at my school too but it seemed crazy to use as a beginner language. I guess if you just shape the curriculum to hide everything that the Java VM does for the user it could work

      also looking at Java code makes my eyes want to puke, so I have that bias
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Fish of Rage (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 04:47:29 JST Fish of Rage Fish of Rage
      in reply to
      • feld
      • LisPi
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @feld @lispi314 @vr-t8x15 java and go were both invented for companies where you just plain aren't hiring the best quality of people but need them to be productive and not fuck up majorly all the time and they both are pretty good at that
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Fish of Rage (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 04:48:29 JST Fish of Rage Fish of Rage
      in reply to
      • feld
      • LisPi
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @vr-t8x15 @feld @lispi314 I'm one of those people that considers C a portable assembler, I know the arguments against it but I think it's a passable metaphor. you can teach C at the same time you teach assembler and computer architecture and it should all "click"
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      VR-T8X15 (Artemis) (vr-t8x15@social.xenofem.me)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 04:48:30 JST VR-T8X15 (Artemis) VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      in reply to
      • feld
      • LisPi
      @sun @feld @lispi314 largely positive but i would offer the choice between that or the same deal with C. learn what a pointer is or get out of my codebases. yes, even the rust ones
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      VR-T8X15 (Artemis) (vr-t8x15@social.xenofem.me)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 04:48:35 JST VR-T8X15 (Artemis) VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      in reply to
      • feld
      • LisPi
      @sun @feld @lispi314 go was co-developed by ken thompson of all people. embarassing
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
      Fish of Rage likes this.
    • Embed this notice
      VR-T8X15 (Artemis) (vr-t8x15@social.xenofem.me)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 04:50:31 JST VR-T8X15 (Artemis) VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      in reply to
      • feld
      • LisPi
      @sun @feld @lispi314 yup. learning C is crucial to acquiring whole-system understanding. if not for the lessons that come from the language then the codebases knowing it opens you up to reading.

      have you ever read doom's source code? it's like poetry. same with linux or BEAM.
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
      Fish of Rage likes this.
    • Embed this notice
      Fish of Rage (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 04:50:38 JST Fish of Rage Fish of Rage
      in reply to
      • feld
      • LisPi
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @vr-t8x15 @feld @lispi314 No, but I should read DOOM's source code.
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Fish of Rage (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 04:53:10 JST Fish of Rage Fish of Rage
      in reply to
      • feld
      • LisPi
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @lispi314 @feld @vr-t8x15 my issue with teaching C++ for school is that you're going to be teaching like 80% C++ idiosyncrasies instead of concepts.
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      LisPi (lispi314@udongein.xyz)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 04:53:11 JST LisPi LisPi
      in reply to
      • feld
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @vr-t8x15 @sun @feld > proper computer science courses tend to like C though from what i can tell

      They do. And for some reason, few ever talk about the litany of design problems with it, or applaud them as laudable, instead of flaws. In many cases because they drank the kool-aid for a bunch of memes that haven't been true or relevant for decades at this point.
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      VR-T8X15 (Artemis) (vr-t8x15@social.xenofem.me)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 04:53:12 JST VR-T8X15 (Artemis) VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      in reply to
      • feld
      • LisPi
      @sun @feld @lispi314 virtually every uni, from what i can tell. C++ is typically taught as "the hard java" too, which fucking sucks. proper computer science courses tend to like C though from what i can tell
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      VR-T8X15 (Artemis) (vr-t8x15@social.xenofem.me)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 04:55:07 JST VR-T8X15 (Artemis) VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      in reply to
      • feld
      • LisPi
      @sun @feld @lispi314 "here's how you display to the screen, but keep in mind that << is a bitshift operator that has been overloaded by `std::ostream`. what's a bitshift? what's an operator? what's overloading? glad you asked, but we've run out of time this semester; happy graduation!"
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
      Fish of Rage likes this.
    • Embed this notice
      Fish of Rage (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 04:56:04 JST Fish of Rage Fish of Rage
      in reply to
      • feld
      • LisPi
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @feld @vr-t8x15 @lispi314 the code in OpenSMTP, despite now having half a dozen severe security flaws discovered, is very well architected for a UNIX system
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      feld (feld@bikeshed.party)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 04:56:05 JST feld feld
      in reply to
      • LisPi
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @sun @vr-t8x15 @lispi314 a lot of gaming C especially early gaming C is gonna be so weird

      I think if you want to read quality C code you need to reach for something written by a good *nix C programmer

      * OpenLDAP and LMDB by Howard Chu
      * Certain OpenBSD things
      * Anything by Poul-Henning Kampf
      * C code written by TedU
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
      :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: likes this.
    • Embed this notice
      VR-T8X15 (Artemis) (vr-t8x15@social.xenofem.me)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 04:58:20 JST VR-T8X15 (Artemis) VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      in reply to
      • feld
      • LisPi
      @feld @sun @lispi314 openbsd c is typically beautiful
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
      Fish of Rage likes this.
    • Embed this notice
      翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 05:00:29 JST 翠星石 翠星石
      in reply to
      • feld
      • LisPi
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @feld @sun @vr-t8x15 @lispi314 Nothing is more beautiful than GNU's C.

      Right from the license on the top of the file, it's very pleasing.
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      feld (feld@bikeshed.party)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 05:00:30 JST feld feld
      in reply to
      • LisPi
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @sun @vr-t8x15 @lispi314 there's some really good stuff in Solaris that nobody pays attention to
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
      Fish of Rage likes this.
    • Embed this notice
      Fish of Rage (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 05:05:00 JST Fish of Rage Fish of Rage
      in reply to
      • 翠星石
      • feld
      • LisPi
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @feld @Suiseiseki @vr-t8x15 @lispi314 Jim Meyering I sentence you to death
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      feld (feld@bikeshed.party)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 05:05:01 JST feld feld
      in reply to
      • 翠星石
      • LisPi
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @Suiseiseki @sun @vr-t8x15 @lispi314 GNU crimes continue to go unpunished

      https://raw.githubusercontent.com/coreutils/coreutils/master/src/true.c

      https://cgit.freebsd.org/src/plain/usr.bin/true/true.c
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink

      Attachments


      1. Invalid filename.

      2. Invalid filename.
    • Embed this notice
      翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 05:08:04 JST 翠星石 翠星石
      in reply to
      • feld
      • LisPi
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @feld @sun @vr-t8x15 @lispi314 >Linking to github mirror rather than the real thing
      https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/tree/src/true.c

      Every line is in its proper place to ensure that --help and --version operate as expected of GNU software.

      "Free"BSD's version is flawed as it doesn't do this;
      LANG=ja_JP.UTF-8 /bin/true --help
      使用法: /bin/true [コマンドライン引数は無視されます]
      または: /bin/true OPTION
      終了コードは成功になります。

      --help 使い方を表示して終了する
      --version バージョン情報を表示して終了する

      Your shell may have its own version of true, which usually supersedes
      the version described here. Please refer to your shell's documentation
      for details about the options it supports.

      GNU coreutils のオンラインヘルプ: <https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/>
      翻訳に関するバグは <https://translationproject.org/team/ja.html> に連絡してください。
      詳細な文書 <https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/true>
      (ローカルでは info '(coreutils) true invocation' で参照可能)。

      LANG=ja_JP.UTF-8 /bin/true --version
      true (GNU coreutils) 9.5
      Copyright (C) 2024 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
      ライセンス GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <https://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>.
      This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it.
      There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law.

      作者 Jim Meyering。
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink

      Attachments

      1. Domain not in remote thumbnail source whitelist: www.gnu.org
        The GNU General Public License v3.0 - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation
        from mailto:webmasters@gnu.org
      2. No result found on File_thumbnail lookup.
        Coreutils - GNU core utilities
        from mailto:webmasters@gnu.org
      3. No result found on File_thumbnail lookup.
        Translation team for Japanese
      4. No result found on File_thumbnail lookup.
        true invocation (GNU Coreutils 9.3)
        true invocation (GNU Coreutils 9.3)
      5. Domain not in remote thumbnail source whitelist: git.savannah.gnu.org
        true.c\src - coreutils.git - GNU coreutils
    • Embed this notice
      翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 05:24:18 JST 翠星石 翠星石
      in reply to
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @vr-t8x15 There is no guarantee than a man is installed on a system with GNU coreutils installed, nor the packagers haven't decided to remove the manpages and add them to a -doc version of the package (that may not be installable if you don't have internet right then).

      Meanwhile, those kind of packagers can't work out how to strip out gettext files usually.


      For every binary on the system, unless there is a legitimate technical reason not to, the license should be printed when --version or --license is passed, preferably optionally in the users preferred native language.

      The manpage is really for more detailed information on software usage and GNU has those too.
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      VR-T8X15 (Artemis) (vr-t8x15@social.xenofem.me)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 05:24:19 JST VR-T8X15 (Artemis) VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      in reply to
      • 翠星石
      • feld
      • LisPi
      @Suiseiseki @feld @sun @lispi314 if i were involved in bonsai this is the part where i'd say that information about versioning, licensing, help, and localizations of all of the above would be the jobs of manpages, not --help or --version.
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 05:27:34 JST 翠星石 翠星石
      in reply to
      • feld
      @feld >It's true. It has no options. It was never supposed to have any options.
      GNU's Not Unix and therefore arbitrary limitations set by Unix are ignored, so claims like "It was never supposed to have any options" are ignored and the free software license printing flags are added no matter the seething.

      >This is just gaslighting the user.
      >It's gaslighting the user to helpfully tell them the license of all software they execute at only a --version invocation away.
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      feld (feld@bikeshed.party)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 05:27:35 JST feld feld
      in reply to
      • 翠星石
      • LisPi
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @Suiseiseki @sun @vr-t8x15 @lispi314

      > Your shell may have its own version of true, which usually supersedes
      the version described here. Please refer to your shell's documentation
      for details about the options it supports.


      It's true. It has no options. It was never supposed to have any options. This is just gaslighting the user.
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 05:37:08 JST 翠星石 翠星石
      in reply to
      • feld
      @feld >the code is trivial and not patentable
      Software is not a patentable subject manner, as software is math - too bad the USA patent office awards them anyway.

      A patent on one program wouldn't be a big issue - the issue is that patents restrict all software and even hardware.

      The relevant law here is copyright.

      While "return 0;" certainly isn't creative enough to qualify for copyright, based GNU developers decided to exercise their creativity and write yet another masterpiece (https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/tree/src/true.c) that is creative enough to qualify for copyright and therefore it print the license.
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink

      Attachments

      1. Domain not in remote thumbnail source whitelist: git.savannah.gnu.org
        true.c\src - coreutils.git - GNU coreutils
    • Embed this notice
      feld (feld@bikeshed.party)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 05:37:09 JST feld feld
      in reply to
      • 翠星石
      @Suiseiseki they don't need to know the fucking license of something that just returns a 0 exit code

      the code is trivial and not patentable; the license is pointless
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Fish of Rage (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 11:13:58 JST Fish of Rage Fish of Rage
      in reply to
      • feld
      • Hayley
      • LisPi
      • whiteline
      @hayley @feld @whiteline @lispi314 yall should learn that after you learn how to make reliable software
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Hayley (hayley@social.applied-langua.ge)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 11:14:05 JST Hayley Hayley
      in reply to
      • feld
      • LisPi
      • whiteline
      @whiteline @feld @sun @lispi314 structured programming is not how computers work, teach the first years goto
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
      Fish of Rage likes this.
    • Embed this notice
      whiteline (whiteline@shitposter.world)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 11:14:06 JST whiteline whiteline
      in reply to
      • feld
      • LisPi
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @sun @feld @lispi314 @vr-t8x15 no, immutability is not how computers work or how most actual data structures and algorithms work
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
    • Embed this notice
      mothball蛾玉 (西洋巣酸の木) (moth_ball@shitposter.world)'s status on Thursday, 11-Jul-2024 18:36:44 JST mothball蛾玉 (西洋巣酸の木) mothball蛾玉 (西洋巣酸の木)
      in reply to
      • feld
      • LisPi
      • VR-T8X15 (Artemis)
      @sun @feld @lispi314 @vr-t8x15 new parrotable opinion on coding acquired
      In conversation about 11 months ago permalink
      Fish of Rage likes this.

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