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1. Embed this notice
   Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 00:06:04 JST Bread up, Bro
   nitter.poast.org/ChrisMartzWX/status/1804842214230761815#m these kinds of graphs are what first radicalized me against "renewable" energy.
   • Embed this notice
     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 00:07:17 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to
     people might say "but sickburnbro, you have to mine the energy for nuclear, it will run out someday!"
     
     and I say "my brother, some day the sun will run out and solar,wind, and hydro with it"
   • Embed this notice
     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 00:37:35 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • d
     @deprecated_ii the problem with grid scale it means "can scale independently of weather conditions" and if you are going to do that with solar or wind, you need another technology to sit in the middle.
   • Embed this notice
     d (deprecated_ii@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 00:37:36 JST d

     in reply to
     @sickburnbro I don't care if wind and solar are free, they don't work at grid scale on their own because they can't be controlled
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     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 00:40:54 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     @WandererUber if you want to really get into it, you have to figure in the costs to make all that steel, isn't not being picked from trees, because fresh steel still requires coal.
   • Embed this notice
     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 00:40:55 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to
     @sickburnbro His argument is that we need to mine more material for "renewables", correct?
     
     >Mining for these raw materials would have to increase by >300%
     
     A ton of coal produces 6 MWh, for 1 TWh that's 166,666 tons
     
     Total mined tons for Solar PV, per his chart: 16,000
     Total mined tons for coal power, plus the coal: 167,666 tons
     
     That's ten times more.
   • Embed this notice
     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 00:40:55 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     @sickburnbro Uranium is interesting, because 1 kg of the stuff contains 24,000,000 kWh but I need to find a figure of how many tons you need to mine to get 1 ton of U-235
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     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 00:40:55 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     @sickburnbro I found an estimate from the World Nuclear Association that the average grade is 0.1% of uranium in a mined ton.
     Orano Group (Uranium mining company) says 0.7% of Uranium ore are U-235.
     
     So for a mined ton, you get 0,000007 tons of U-235, equivalent to 168 MWh
     
     Following the same calculation that puts nuclear at 5952 mined tons plus about a 1000 tons of reactor material
     so 6952 vs the "terrible" 16,000 tons of solar. Not that far apart, but nuclear still comes out on top in this comparison.
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     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 00:48:00 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     @WandererUber the problem with smelting is it's a massive chemical reaction that you want to do at high volume and oh yeah it's gonna take a ton of energy no matter what you want. Steelmaking is even more difficult because you are trying to get a specific lattice structure.
     
     The paper he is citing is from energy.gov, so the chances of it being derogatory to solar are slim.
   • Embed this notice
     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 00:48:01 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to
     @sickburnbro If I really wanted to get into it, I'd have to open the paper he "cites" and check his math because especially the steel numbers for PV seem like a complete asspull and since the guy "forgot" to include all the actual fuel in his "mining comparison" I'd assume malice at this point.
     
     But you are right. I think there is some research in the steel industry away from coal and other fuels/electricity because this makes the result more controllable and enables high performance materials but mass adoption remains to be seen.
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     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 00:48:50 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • d
     • skylar :confederateflag:??? :z:
     • Wiz
     @skylar @Wiz @deprecated_ii please think about the electric eels
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     skylar :confederateflag:??? :z: (skylar@misskey.yandere.love)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 00:48:51 JST skylar :confederateflag:??? :z:

     in reply to

     • d
     • Wiz
     @Wiz @deprecated_ii @sickburnbro it's good for the environment because it helps charge the electric eels
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     skylar :confederateflag:??? :z: (skylar@misskey.yandere.love)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 00:48:52 JST skylar :confederateflag:??? :z:

     in reply to

     • d
     • Wiz
     @Wiz @deprecated_ii @sickburnbro lead acid batteries are some of the most recycled materials around
     but they're still lead, still in plastic cases, and heavy as shit so there's a lot of packaging material around them which is usually styrofoam
   • Embed this notice
     wiz@loli.church's status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 00:48:52 JST Wiz

     in reply to

     • d
     • skylar :confederateflag:??? :z:

     @skylar@misskey.yandere.love @deprecated_ii@poa.st @sickburnbro@poa.st you can also just throw them in the ocean

   • Embed this notice
     wiz@loli.church's status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 00:48:53 JST Wiz

     in reply to

     • d
     • skylar :confederateflag:??? :z:

     @skylar@misskey.yandere.love @deprecated_ii@poa.st @sickburnbro@poa.st but it's good for the environment, bro

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     skylar :confederateflag:??? :z: (skylar@misskey.yandere.love)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 00:48:55 JST skylar :confederateflag:??? :z:

     in reply to

     • d
     @deprecated_ii @sickburnbro bro just buy giant banks of batteries
     you can pick the kind that needs replaced every 3-5 years (much more often if draining and recharging them regularly) or the kind that are really expensive and might last 10 but are also prone to starting hellish fires that can reignite on their own after being submerged in water for 30 days
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     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 04:13:12 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     @WandererUber yes, obviously they are going to exclude the fuel, because once you start including that, then you have to say ok, and what about the fuel for the machines which mine the stuff? And the fuel for the machines which make the materials?
     
     And then you have the derate the costs for those because of age and location.
     
     This is why I talk about the purity of silicon needed for solar. The cost in energy to produce that silicon - quora.com/How-many-kWh-electricity-are-necessary-for-producing-1-kg-of-pure-silicium-from-sand
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     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 04:13:13 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to
     @sickburnbro obvious. He's fudging the numbers though, attached is the chapter from the report and a screenshot of the actual table. Which prominently features the caveat "fuel excluded" (and I'm trying to find out what exactly is the source for all that steel for PV right now. Interesting :thonktinfoil: )
     
     Either he doesn't know what he is talking about or he intentionally left that out when he titled his little baby chart "Material Requirements"
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     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 05:13:39 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to
     @sickburnbro Did you look at the chart from the source? they DID include ALL material costs for upstream energy collection but ONLY for the renewables. Using this chart for the purpose that the tweet did is completely nonsensical.
     
     We had this discussion about energy in, energy out for solar before. Solar has a positive EROI and the figure is not that bad
     
     >the purity of silicon needed for solar. The cost in energy to produce that silicon
     A 400 Wp solar panel weighs about 20 kg. Let's pretend ALL of it is pure silicon. As per your link, the energy needed would only be 220 kWh. A 400 Wp solar panel will produce this amount of electricity in 55 days.
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     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 05:13:39 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     @WandererUber no, the EROI for solar is negative and rather bad. It's been bad for 20 years, because engineers ran numbers back then assuming the best possible conditions on the earth it was bad.
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     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 05:19:56 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     @WandererUber no, my argument is that those are costs that almost every analysis doesn't include and they are substantial.
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     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 05:19:57 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to
     @sickburnbro Your argument for the negative EROI was the energy usage of silicon manufacture. What about my calculation do you disagree with?
   • Embed this notice
     VikingWays (vikingways@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 05:29:37 JST VikingWays

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     I've got a buddy, master electrician, owns the Ford Lightning, owned a business laying solar fields with pile drivers and obviously is a huge solar guy. He thinks the technology is coming along nicely, and is a great investment at present. Now I say this because he's a pretty smart guy but could be dead wrong and why is it so hard to do an end to end solar cost analysis? If people are leaving out the silicon manufacture that's a big fucking deal, so why has no neutral party done this? Wouldn't smart mother fuckers who want to invest in actual real money making investments do this kind of leg work?
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     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 05:29:37 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     • VikingWays
     @VikingWays @WandererUber the reason why it seems like a good investment is because the government is throwing billions of dollars at it. But what is worse is that we don't know what China is spending to maintain their control ( time.com/6564184/chinese-solar-panels-cost/ as a recent example of people worrying )
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     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 05:36:52 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     @WandererUber Again, I'm not going to go into detail. some of those numbers were for metallurgical grade, which is not suitable for electronics sinovoltaics.com/learning-center/solar-cells/silicon-si-solar-cells-produced/ has more information on that.
     
     pveducation.org/pvcdrom/manufacturing-si-cells/refining-silicon
     
     notice this shows the energy cost for the metallurgical grade, but not the electronics grade? WHY? Couldn't tell you.
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     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 05:36:53 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to
     @sickburnbro >substantial costs
     yes, and I assumed worst case for your pure silicon argument. Not that substantial. What about my result do you disagree with?
     
     There are plenty of analyses that take an enourmous trail of externalities into account, including the DOE one the original tweet cites incorrectly, as I've said before.
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     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 05:50:05 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     @WandererUber attached graph is just looking at dolarydoos versus energy, which is just rephrasing the even less interesting question.
     
     The reason people go with "dollars to energy out" is that it is supposed to "price in" all costs.
     
     But the reason "energy in" is useful is because there is a ton of distortion in the market, so energy-in can be useful to try and remove that.
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     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 05:50:06 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to
     @sickburnbro >It's this much
     >Then the panel would need X kWh. That's not that much
     >It's more
     how much more?
     
     >Again, I'm not going to go into detail.
     If you can't go into detail, look at the big picture (attached)
     You can read from the report [1] (or one of the many similar ones) directly and find where you disagree, if you like. But I'd be interested in hard numbers. You wouldn't accept some guy arguing "nuclear has hidden costs" as a solid argument either.
     
     [1] seas.columbia.edu/clca/Task12_LCI_LCA_10_21_Final_Report.pdf
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     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 05:53:45 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     • VikingWays
     @WandererUber @VikingWays you need to size any thing you are looking to power based on average draw as well as instantaneous draw. Something like a well pump is going to have high draw on start, and because it's a coil part of the draw will be reactive power.
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     VikingWays (vikingways@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 05:53:46 JST VikingWays

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     I'll see if I can find it, how would I go about figuring that out?
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     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 05:53:46 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to

     • VikingWays
     @VikingWays @sickburnbro Couple of ways, either shut all your power off except for the pump and look at the meter while it's running, or a bit more accurately with one of those "measurement socket things" that you plug into before going into the actual outlet.
     
     I thought you might know what kinda pump you got there, but I can run with an estimate. Internet says 2,500 W for a pump that does 2500 gallons an hour.
     Does that sound about right for yours?
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     VikingWays (vikingways@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 05:53:47 JST VikingWays

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     I want solar back-up strong enough for my well pump which is a well 320 feet deep (100 meters if you're a Euro)
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     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 05:53:47 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to

     • VikingWays
     @VikingWays @sickburnbro you got an estimate of the power draw? Should be doable easy
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     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 05:53:48 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to

     • VikingWays
     @VikingWays @sickburnbro they don't leave it out. More or less neutral parties are doing this. It's trivial to calculate an upper bound, look at what I wrote two posts up the chain.
     Solar cost analysis is different from this because there you'd wanna know if you save money by installing solar. Such an estimate is even easier to calculate and plenty homeowners do it before installing solar.
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     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 05:56:27 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     • VikingWays
     @WandererUber @VikingWays depending on size, you can get average draw using a killawatt.
   • Embed this notice
     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 06:07:35 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     @WandererUber ok, so they define their method using only energy. "Alsema estimated 4200 and 5700 MJ/m2 for multi- and mono-Si modules, respectively [5]. " is closer to what I would expect but still seems optimistic.
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     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 06:07:36 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to
     @sickburnbro You're wrong. The graph is looking at energy in vs out, so exactly what you are looking for. You should take another look at the report.
   • Embed this notice
     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 06:14:12 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     @WandererUber changed my mind about what exactly?
   • Embed this notice
     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 06:14:13 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to
     @sickburnbro We went through this whole thing because you said solar had negative EROI and now a breakeven time of just 3 years is
     >closer to what you would expect
     and just a bit "optimistic" ?
     
     Come on, dude...
   • Embed this notice
     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 06:14:13 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     @sickburnbro In any case, I'm glad you changed your mind.
   • Embed this notice
     VikingWays (vikingways@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 06:14:48 JST VikingWays

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     Me I'm just trying to figure out how many solar panels and how big my inverter needs to be to run this farm if SHTF or we get an ice storm or tornado, whichever comes first.
   • Embed this notice
     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 06:14:48 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     • VikingWays
     @VikingWays @WandererUber yes, you should know your energy requirements if you are going to produce your own power, no matter the source.
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     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 06:16:52 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to
     @sickburnbro I mean if 3 years breakeven on energy is close to your estimate, you basically are agreeing with me that EROI is positive and it's not even close
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     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 06:16:52 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     @WandererUber no, I'm talking about the costs for producing the cells alone. 3 years EROI is wrong, and if you look at their calculations is to be taken at "all solar energy supplied to cells are turned into useful work" - which is fine for calculations but if anything should be marked minEROI to show that it isn't a real usage figure.
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     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 06:23:06 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     • VikingWays
     @VikingWays @WandererUber you shouldn't do that. You should try to figure out how much energy the pump uses, and how much water heaters take for when there is that ice storm.
     
     There is some learning to do, but you should know. You might find that a smaller solar system plus a generator might be a good option.
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     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 06:23:07 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to

     • VikingWays
     @VikingWays @sickburnbro In general, you should get the biggest array you have space for, because the array is going to be way cheaper than lithium batteries.
     Store the energy as heat in your house (heatpump / AC) or water tank (they make resistive heaters especially for this)
     
     Take a minute to calculate your costs if it's gonna be a plant this big, I thought you only wanted to run your pump
     
     If you're worried about ice storms, probably not your best bet. If you install it right, it won't break but you're not gonna get much power out solar in 10 ft visibility, cloudy day, frozen panels. You're gonna have to wipe the frost off at least.
   • Embed this notice
     VikingWays (vikingways@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 06:23:07 JST VikingWays

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     Cost wise I don't do usury so it's probably just for the pump for now so i can get animals water. I just figured I'd see max cost for house and well and then sigh at the outrageous cost and do well.
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     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 06:24:56 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to
     @sickburnbro >3 years EROI is wrong
     Why is it wrong?
     
     >if you look at their calculations is to be taken at "all solar energy supplied to cells are turned into useful work" -
     No, it's to be taken as "at this point in time, the solar panel has produced as much energy as it took to make it"
     If they're off by a factor of 6, EROI is still positive. Solar panels last 20 years minimum.
     
     
     You just keep saying what you've been saying but you're pulling all your arguments out of thin air. The one time you actually gave an example of a supposed "energy intensive" process that would make EROI overall negative, I explained to you that even in the absolute nonsensical worst case, whole panel made of purest silicon, it wouldn't make it negative.
     How on earth are you still saying this?
   • Embed this notice
     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 06:24:56 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     @WandererUber solar panels don't last "20 years minimum", that's just a lie because you want to have a positive EROI.
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     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 06:31:42 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to
     @sickburnbro I wouldn't need to lie, because as I've shown before, they've made the energy investment back in 3.
     
     Everything you said to back up your claim was made up. Please don't assume I'm lying because you're unwilling to consider my side.
     
     DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD
     
     >The leading solar manufacturers now offer a product warranty of up to 25 years
     marketwatch.com/guides/solar/solar-panel-warranty/
     
     >The industry standard for most solar panels' lifespans is 25 to 30 years.
     forbes.com/home-improvement/solar/how-long-do-solar-panels-last/
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     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 06:31:42 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     @WandererUber marketwatch.com/guides/solar/solar-panel-warranty/
     
     what does a warranty have to do with EROI
   • Embed this notice
     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 06:34:37 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     @WandererUber remember, what I am talking about here is feasibility of solar as a base load generation technology.
     
     One of the main components of something being feasible for base load generation is "will this make recreating these items in 50 years be cheaper or more expensive"
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     VikingWays (vikingways@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 06:35:47 JST VikingWays

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     25 gallons just for drinking daily for humans and animals. Jumps up to 140 or so for cooking, toilets, etc
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     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 06:35:47 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to

     • VikingWays
     @VikingWays @sickburnbro That's basically nothing. You could probably get by with a DC pump, a car battery and one big panel. Probably skip the battery if you had a tank at ground level.
     That little is rainwater territory in some places.
     Really wanna know what kind of pump you got that you need a well house. Get back to me when you find out please.
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     VikingWays (vikingways@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 06:35:47 JST VikingWays

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     These are ChatGPT estimates based on the animals and 4 adults. I am sure this is a low ball number for 'times are tough and we are just surviving and not thriving'. I'm buying a clamp meter tonight and ill call the well company about the specs of the new pump they put in.
     Bread up, Bro likes this.
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     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 06:35:48 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to

     • VikingWays
     @VikingWays @sickburnbro How many gallons would you need per day?
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     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 06:36:02 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     • VikingWays
     @VikingWays @WandererUber you said the well is 300ft though, no?
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     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 06:36:52 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     • VikingWays
     @VikingWays @WandererUber you should have the paperwork for the pump. I assume yours is installed at the bottom and pumps up, yeah?
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     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 07:34:59 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to

     • Forgetful Gynn
     @Forgetful_Gynn @sickburnbro They use a measurement of the total yearly irradiance for the location plus the inclination of the roof you enter. This and some very simple trig (sine and cosine) give you a good estimation.
     
     If you need more help with your 8th grade math homework, let me know. Getting silly at this point :blobrollingeyes:
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     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 07:34:59 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • Forgetful Gynn
     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     @WandererUber @Forgetful_Gynn my brother you are defending SystemApproved ™️ technology on a anti-system instance, what did you expect
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     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 07:35:00 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to

     • Forgetful Gynn
     @Forgetful_Gynn @sickburnbro >any numbers on that? I'm not meaning to make you do all the work here
     Nah, that's fair enough. Anecdotally on my uncle's property he gets about 1/4 of the output of the south side on north. That's the difference between hot water and running off the batteries until dawn and paying out his ass for grid power.
     For a good estimate you'd probably run one of the many available online calculators, once for dead south at your location, once for dead north.
     
     West side is best if you got it, because you use most energy when you're home (afternoon, evening) and you'd save on batteries
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     Forgetful Gynn (forgetful_gynn@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 07:35:00 JST Forgetful Gynn

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     @WandererUber @sickburnbro What was the methodology used for those calculators?
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     Forgetful Gynn (forgetful_gynn@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 07:35:01 JST Forgetful Gynn

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     @WandererUber @sickburnbro >south europe
     Yeah I've heard the breakeven stats only really apply close to the equator.
     
     >efficient
     Any stats on how much less efficient?
     
     I don't really need a map since it's obvious the solar flux is highest at the equator. There's also weather to contend with shortening the productive time per day. Not to mention how residential solar is mostly installed on angled roofs which only get the proper light a portion of the day. Combining that with the degradation of efficiency it probably does get pretty piss-poor after a while. What's the cutoff voltage for replacement in the warranties?
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     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 07:35:01 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to

     • Forgetful Gynn
     @Forgetful_Gynn @sickburnbro >close to the equator.
     Southern Europe isn't anywhere close to the equator. It's further north than Texas.
     
     >angled roofs which only get the proper light a portion of the day
     Nobody puts solar panels flat, angled makes the most sense inclination wise. Shadows are a problem but even if your roof runs East-West you can just put panels on both sides, even north-facing is worth it.
     
     >it probably does get pretty piss-poor after a while.
     Everything decays. If you think 30 years of solid output and probably more at reduced efficiency isn't good enough, you do you.
     
     >What's the cutoff voltage for replacement in the warranties?
     depends on the supplier. It's basically never cutoff "voltage" though, not sure where you got that from. It's a percentage of the rated output in watts, most of the time.
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     Forgetful Gynn (forgetful_gynn@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 07:35:01 JST Forgetful Gynn

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     @WandererUber @sickburnbro Then i'd need to see the figures and who wrote them for southern europe.
     
     >just buy more panels
     yeah I guess that'd be an option. The south/north ones do lose out on total energy tho.
     
     >solid output
     any numbers on that? I'm not meaning to make you do all the work here, but if you're the one providing the numbers then you'll likely find the ones most favorable to your side.
     
     >depends on the supplier
     fair enough
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     Forgetful Gynn (forgetful_gynn@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 07:35:02 JST Forgetful Gynn

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     @WandererUber @sickburnbro Where on the breakeven cost page does it say where the solar panels they tested were installed? Like where in relation to the equator?
     
     Same for the lifetime ones.
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     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 07:35:02 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to

     • Forgetful Gynn
     @Forgetful_Gynn @sickburnbro >breakeven
     Southern Europe, so basically dead center in the US.
     I've edited the post because I accidentally cropped it off, good catch!
     
     >lifetime
     Basically doesn't matter as long your not in Antarctica or death valley. They give you a 25 year warranty in all of Europe or the US and even after that it's not broken, just less efficient. I'll see if I can find a study that has this in relation to climate.
     
     See this link for a solar irradiation map so you can estimate the energy breakeven at other locations (keep in mind this is not money breakeven!)
     globalsolaratlas.info/
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     Bread up, Bro (sickburnbro@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 07:45:22 JST Bread up, Bro

     in reply to

     • Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer
     @WandererUber I understand that you wish to use it for off-gridness, and like the technology for that, mainly.
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     Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer (wandereruber@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 28-Jun-2024 07:45:23 JST Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer

     in reply to
     @sickburnbro fair enough lmfao