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Niggy Hardare (j@cawfee.club)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:33 JST Niggy Hardare

In the West, it’s often thought that religion exists to give people hope for an afterlife.
When Christians speak of reincarnation, it’s often framed in similar terms. You’ll always come back, so everything is ok! But that’s not how they see it in the East at all.
For the East, an afterlife is a horrible thing. Even if you achieve a good rebirth, it will be followed by uncountable bad ones that you won’t remember. You’re just having the reset button pressed again and again and again to lose all your accomplishments and suffer from scratch.
The goal of Platonism and Dharma is to end the triggers for rebirth and return to something more fundamental than life. It’s End of Evangelion religion 😆

In conversation about 5 months ago from cawfee.club permalink
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  ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️ (kingofwhiteamerica@poa.st)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:16 JST ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️
  in reply to
  @BudSpencer @LawrenceGerald @J @cowanon @Turkleton > when they happen, usually an american is involved.
  
  I died.
  
  😂
  
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  BudSpencer (budspencer@poa.st)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:16 JST BudSpencer
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  @KingOfWhiteAmerica @LawrenceGerald @J @cowanon @Turkleton that was not meant as an insult. There is nothing wrong with putting that type of effort into something you perceive as that importatnt for your way of life. I just meant nobody i know IRL is doing that. From my perspective that stuff just really is discussed on the internet and mostly by americans. Most people who would describe themselves as religious are totally fine with simply believing in a creator deity that loves them and died for all our sins. Church has much more of a cultural and community meaning here. We have no adult bible study groups uhm.., well they exist but they all are operated by cults or weird subsection like Opus Dei.
  
  if i needed to describe the sentiment here it's rather like we think god is allmighty and doesn't need us casting spells absolutely correctly to worship and please him... we rather assume he likes people living to his rules and following the teachings... and we actually just don't question it, because we like it comfy when it comes to religion...
  We are way more milk toast than you guys in matters of christianity.
  
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  BowserNoodle ☦️ likes this.
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  BudSpencer (budspencer@poa.st)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:17 JST BudSpencer
  in reply to
  @LawrenceGerald @J @cowanon @KingOfWhiteAmerica @Turkleton Sorry for the unqualified iterjection but reading through my mentions makes me feel like reading through one of my 90s fantasy books where wizards, magicians, witches and necromancers were constantly beefing on who the strongest spells had, and what the others did wrong... I can't talk on orthodoxy, but in general debates like that are basically non existant in germany. when they happen, usually and american is involved. To us religion is a private matter, and how it is practiced, is the responsibility of the practitioner. We very much think living your life in a way that you imagine would please god is worship, and prayer is for the practitioner, to ease the consciousness and ask for help and protection for friends and family. The ritual prayers are losing their importance more and more.
  It's weird, and from my perspective it seems like the approach towards religion and practice is almost antithetical
  
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  Niggy Hardare (j@cawfee.club)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:18 JST Niggy Hardare
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  @LawrenceGerald @cowanon @BudSpencer @KingOfWhiteAmerica @Turkleton There's one version like that but it's not in common use.
  
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  Wignatia (lawrencegerald@poa.st)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:18 JST Wignatia
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  @J @cowanon @BudSpencer @KingOfWhiteAmerica @Turkleton The Western Rite of Orthodoxy is small compared to the rest of Orthodoxy in America, and this prayer book isn't used by most Orthodox, no. It contains the Liturgy of St Tikhon, which is a theologically corrected version of the old Anglican Liturgy we used when I was growing up. Other Western Rite churches use the Liturgy of St Gregory, which is the old Roman Rite. The St Ambrose Prayer Book contains that Liturgy and more Orthodox-ized western prayers, including the Rosary and devotions to the Theotokos.
  
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  Wignatia (lawrencegerald@poa.st)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:19 JST Wignatia
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  @J @KingOfWhiteAmerica @cowanon @BudSpencer @Turkleton The Book of Common Prayer, theologically corrected and conformed to Orthodoxy, is used in Western Rite Orthodox churches. As is the Monastic Breviary.
  
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  Niggy Hardare (j@cawfee.club)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:20 JST Niggy Hardare
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  @KingOfWhiteAmerica @cowanon @BudSpencer @Turkleton The Church of England has all of their basic prayers and liturgies documented in a single book that’s affordable for anyone to own.
  This is bc one of Archbishop Cranmer’s goals in the English Reformation was to bring spiritual depths out of the monasteries and into the real world, so they streamlined all the basics into one place.
  
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  Niggy Hardare (j@cawfee.club)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:21 JST Niggy Hardare
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  @KingOfWhiteAmerica @cowanon @BudSpencer @Turkleton It should be abridged and adapted into a single prayer book like the Anglican BCP. Every meditative/prayer tradition should.
  Say what you want about the Church of England now, but it was a brilliant innovation.
  
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  ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️ (kingofwhiteamerica@poa.st)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:21 JST ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️
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  @J @cowanon @BudSpencer @Turkleton I’m admittedly fuzzy on what you’re specifically referring to, tbh.
  
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  ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️ (kingofwhiteamerica@poa.st)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:22 JST ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️
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  @BudSpencer @J @cowanon @Turkleton It’s about what I figured but I’d never be able to articulate it that beautifully. Thank you !
  I can speak into this at great length but it will have to wait until certain familial duties are attended to. But I have to establish sincere gratitude so To Be Continued !
  
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  BudSpencer (budspencer@poa.st)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:22 JST BudSpencer
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  @KingOfWhiteAmerica @J @cowanon @Turkleton Thanks, i wanna learn!
  
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  ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️ (kingofwhiteamerica@poa.st)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:22 JST ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️
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  @BudSpencer @J @cowanon @Turkleton It’s apparent an introduction to Hesychasm is in order - on the grounds there’s still very little familiarity with it, and much misconception.
  
  Any decent introduction must begin as do all things; with the Almighty God. Given, the Trinitarian God, as described in the Symbol of Faith, the Nicene/Constantinopitan Creed (or simply the “Creed” for short). I cannot say whether you believe this God exists or not; we *do*, in any case.
  We believe this “Holy Trinity” exists; is the tri-Personal *source* of all that exists; the *sustainer* of everything that continues to exist; the *End* to which all that exists will, ultimately, attain.
  As such, *all authority* depends absolutely and inextricably upon this God; derives from this God; has zero reality apart from this God; and has no part that exists independently of this God.
  While infinite ink can be spilled to further develop this understanding, we’ll rather go on to say we affirm this God has *revealed* Himself to us, to such an extent as we can understand Him, that His Reality *can* be discerned as distinct from any other possible “god”. We know enough to be able to distinguish Him; enough to contrast Him with any other possible “god”, and realize thereby His utter uniqueness.
  We then believe *this* God, by His unutterable Mercy, through the Holy Mysteries of His Incarnation, established thereby His Church - that is, that specific Holy “Community” - that becomes ontologically *united with Him* through absolute Faith in Him. This Faith - symbolized in The Creed, but not limited to it - we can refer to as The Deposit.
  We believe and affirm this Church actually exists, and is actually indwelt by His Holy Spirit - one Divine Person of the Holy Trinity - and as such has gone through the millennia subsequent the Incarnation of Christ under the active guidance and agency of said Holy Spirit.
  We believe the Deposit of Faith is to be found and accessed *within His Church*.
  We believe the Deposit we received was handed down by Christ Himself, in fullness, to His Apostles; which was then handed down to their disciples, and on and on, clear to the present day.
  While we’d never deny - as errors from the devil arose over time, to confound and befuddle the Faithful, perchance to lead them astray - many millions of words have been spoken since, to *expound* upon this Deposit, and make clear the meaning of this Faith-once-recieved in fullness by Christ’s Apostles; these do not constitute “additions to the Deposit”, because their meanings can be found already there, clear back in The Gospel.
  In other words, the Holy Fathers did not “add the Creed” to the Deposit of Faith; everything said in the Creed was already there in the beginning!
  
  And so too, we believe, is the case with Hesychasm.
  
  Obviously, the argument isn’t that the word “Hesychasm” is in the Holy Scriptures; but rather, it’s a term later used to identify a teaching that has always been there, in the Deposit of Faith, since the Apostolic Age. The word itself may not have appeared so early; not until such a time as the need arose by the Grace of the Holy Spirit, to clearly distinguish our received *Holy Tradition* from erroneous teaching the devil wished to insert at a later time.
  We believe this Holy Tradition is God’s chosen means by which to communicate His will, desires, and expectations for His Church. Insofar as Hesychasm has always been a demonstrable part of said Tradition, we believe its complete and exact preservation in the lives, minds and hearts of His Saints *is and has always been something He desires of us*.
  As such, we believe deviations from this - whether through addition, distortion or distraction - necessarily fall short of His expectations. Such a development is *contrary to His Will* - and His Church therefore desires not that that should come to pass.
  ***
  I’m not myself a Hesychast, nor a Theologian, but merely a concerned Layman. I do not write from any of my own authority - and these are only my meager attempts an a “preface“ of sorts - as to why we think Hesychasm is important.
  
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  ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️ (kingofwhiteamerica@poa.st)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:23 JST ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️
  in reply to
  - Mancow Muller ?
  - ??Turkleton Pupptarr??
  @J @cowanon @Turkleton I have a whole thing about Hesychasm. In fact I actually emailed it to myself since people are expecting it. I’m honestly kind of stoked.
  
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  ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️ (kingofwhiteamerica@poa.st)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:23 JST ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️
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  @J @cowanon @Turkleton It’s actually not done but what I mean is it’s fixing to be a rewarding project.
  
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  BudSpencer (budspencer@poa.st)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:23 JST BudSpencer
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  @KingOfWhiteAmerica @J @cowanon @Turkleton I don't wanna be anti, but as you asked me like a week ago, about germanies perspective on hesychiasm, I think i now can give you an outlook. Culturally the Benediktin ora et labora tradition . is very much engraved into us, with a lot less focus on the ora part. We consider productive labour to be what god pleases, because he gave us the capability and means to do so.
  I think we would probably view it as laziness or sloth. That might come from a tradition of clerics which liked easy living a lot while preaching that humans must work to pay back the primal sin eva brought onto us.
  The greatest gift god awarded to only humans among his earthly creations is creativity. Maybe it's a fallacy or i'm missing the point but i think subconsciously and independent of religion we would always favour being productive and helping humanity prosper as a way to experience divinity over egocentrical practices like yoga or meditation, because that will just benefit the practitioner himself if at all.. We simply favour the bold and hard working.
  I have not looked further into hesychianism, and i don't think more than a handfull of germans would be able to explain it correctly, but to an uneducated german, which would likely have stopped reading the Tl;dr after the first paragraph as it sounds like some sort of hippie hocus pocus to a german ear, and everybody knows, that that kinda stuff leads to veganism and putting stuff your butthole. It sounds like dudes trying to avoid having to work by making up claims it would enable them to talk to and experience the allmighty himself...
  
  It would probably need lots of convincing to even just propose it.
  
  BUT!!! I'm like 99% sure i got it wrong and don't actually understand or know anything about it. This is not criticism of the practice, it's the assumed outcome of what proposing accepting and followng hechyanism to germans would result in.
  
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  Mancow Muller ? (cowanon@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:24 JST Mancow Muller ?
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  - ??Turkleton Pupptarr??
  - ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️
  I have not.
  
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  Niggy Hardare (j@cawfee.club)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:24 JST Niggy Hardare
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  @cowanon @KingOfWhiteAmerica @Turkleton It’s the Eastern Orthodox monastic prayer tradition. It’s the best Christianity has to offer in that regard, it retains the experiential emphasis of Eastern religion while being firmly grounded in Patristic writings.
  
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  Mancow Muller ? (cowanon@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:25 JST Mancow Muller ?
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  - ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️
  I've never listened to thos eother guys. I've not been one to listen to "gurus" with the exception of Watts and maybe a few others I got audiobooks from -- who I now forget, haha. One of them was like twelve hours on the concept of sattipatana.
  
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  ??Turkleton Pupptarr?? (turkleton@poa.st)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:25 JST ??Turkleton Pupptarr??
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  - Mancow Muller ?
  - ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️
  @cowanon @J @KingOfWhiteAmerica Have you ever heard of hesychasm?
  
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  Mancow Muller ? (cowanon@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:26 JST Mancow Muller ?
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  - ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️
  I now know Watts to be someone who likes to put his own spin on religious matters. He did the same with Christianity, too. But if it weren't for him I'd still be an atheist, so I can't fault him completely.
  
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  Niggy Hardare (j@cawfee.club)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:26 JST Niggy Hardare
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  - Mancow Muller ?
  - ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️
  @cowanon @KingOfWhiteAmerica I don’t know anything about that stuff 😆 I just hate the way he speaks.
  I feel the same way about Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Pageau though so I get it.
  
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  Niggy Hardare (j@cawfee.club)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:27 JST Niggy Hardare
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  - Mancow Muller ?
  - ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️
  @cowanon @KingOfWhiteAmerica IDK much about Alan Watts but he instantly felt like a huckster when I heard his YT so I never listened again.
  I just drove two hours to a Wat and asked the monks about the religion personally, bought a few books too.
  
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  Mancow Muller ? (cowanon@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:28 JST Mancow Muller ?
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  - ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️
  While I "officially" consider myself non-denominational, I find myself most empathetic towards Protestantism, especially the Baptists. Yes, that ol' meme again. 😆
  
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  ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️ (kingofwhiteamerica@poa.st)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:28 JST ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️
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  - Mancow Muller ?
  @cowanon @J Hey right on - I spent some time in solitary Zen Buddhist practice, and got the hang of Zazen in half-lotus position (and full lotus if I was feeling masochistic that day). It was enlightening.
  I also became a Trinitarian at a Baptist church in the process of becoming non-denom - but that was quite a few years later.
  
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  Mancow Muller ? (cowanon@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:28 JST Mancow Muller ?
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  - ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️
  My first introduction to Buddhism was through Zen thanks to Alan Watts's many hours of audiobooks and actual deadtree.
  
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  ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️ (kingofwhiteamerica@poa.st)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:29 JST ☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️
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  - Mancow Muller ?
  @cowanon @J If you don’t mind me asking, did you land on a specific Church / denomination ? Trinitarian ?
  
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  Niggy Hardare (j@cawfee.club)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:30 JST Niggy Hardare
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  - Mancow Muller ?
  @cowanon Ah, interesting. I’ve always remembered you as a Christposter, and before that a schizoposter.
  I looked into it this year but didn’t convert. The first 3 Noble Truths ring true enough but it devolves into primitive schizo shit in the 4th.
  Plato did it better.
  
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  Mancow Muller ? (cowanon@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:30 JST Mancow Muller ?
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  I'm a Christian now, after deciding Buddhism wasn't right for me.
  
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  Niggy Hardare (j@cawfee.club)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:31 JST Niggy Hardare
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  - Mancow Muller ?
  @cowanon Just out of curiosity, when did you start researching this?
  I know a few people who did this year without coordinating. It’s strange.
  
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  Mancow Muller ? (cowanon@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:31 JST Mancow Muller ?
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  About 2-3 years ago I considered myself a Buddhist and did many, many hours of research.
  
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  Niggy Hardare (j@cawfee.club)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:32 JST Niggy Hardare
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  - Mancow Muller ?
  @cowanon Absolutely. The modern Western critiques of religion as opium fall apart when you look at what these traditions actually teach, globally. It’s a horrific cosmology.
  
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  Mancow Muller ? (cowanon@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:32 JST Mancow Muller ?
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  Imagine how many quadrillions of ants there are on Earth. You have that much more of a chance of being reincarnated as one of them than you do as a human. That alone should be motivation to achieve nibbana.
  
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  Mancow Muller ? (cowanon@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Saturday, 15-Jun-2024 15:32:33 JST Mancow Muller ?
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  To those who believe in pure dhamma (ie Theravadans) over 99% of life exists in one of the four hells at any given time. Ergo it's not worth the trouble to go through billions of years of being burnt alive just to exist for a hundred as a rich human or a thousand as an angel.
  
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