Conversation

Notices

1. Embed this notice
   iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Monday, 10-Jun-2024 16:23:00 JST iced depresso
   > Call of Duty: Black Ops 6 will require a "continuous internet connection" - even when you're playing its campaign mode. In a blog post published by Activision today, the publisher advises that the Cold War-set shooter uses "texture streaming across all game modes". "This means you'll need a continuous internet connection to play any game mode, including Campaign," Activision wrote.
   
   this is the most retarded thing i've heard today. trying to pass textures off as your DRM cope.
   • :blobcathug: and ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: like this.
   • Embed this notice
     gentoobro (gentoobro@gleasonator.com)'s status on Monday, 10-Jun-2024 16:44:39 JST gentoobro

     in reply to

     @icedquinn That's the most retarded excuse I've ever heard. Who the fuck streams textures across the internet? It's hard enough to stream them between your ssd and vram smoothly...

     iced depresso likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Monday, 10-Jun-2024 18:13:43 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to
     @icedquinn i bet the textures are not on the server, i bet this is a lie
     iced depresso likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Monday, 10-Jun-2024 18:14:17 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • :blobcathug:
     @Jain :ablobcatnodblink:
   • Embed this notice
     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Monday, 10-Jun-2024 18:15:53 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     @icedquinn@blob.cat Well, people complained the previous COD game required 150 GB of storage space. Here's your proprietary Activision™ solution.
     
     Be careful what you wish for.

   • Embed this notice
     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Monday, 10-Jun-2024 18:26:09 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     @icedquinn@blob.cat Personally I don't think a game with 140 GB of uncompressed textures looks any better than a 8 GB total video game from 10 years ago.

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Monday, 10-Jun-2024 18:27:48 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     @icedquinn@blob.cat But yes, this is what they've been working towards all this time. Keep making game install sizes bigger and bigger so they can eventually justify always online DRM by claiming "it's too reduce install size".

   • Embed this notice
     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Monday, 10-Jun-2024 18:32:42 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     @icedquinn@blob.cat I believe not long from now all major triple A games will simply have streamed assets. Effectively fully eliminating freedom, mods, cracking and preservation.
     
     No fun allowed.
     Just buy game.
     And get excited for next game.
     Don't go back and play old game and definitely don't mod and patch it!

   • Embed this notice
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 10-Jun-2024 18:37:20 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • SuperDicq
     @SuperDicq @icedquinn Which is pretty much why something like 90% of games I've bought have been indie, because I want to buy games, not pay rent on what's basically an expensive streamed game.
     iced depresso likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Monday, 10-Jun-2024 18:40:31 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @icedquinn@blob.cat The only video game I'm actively playing at the moment is Space Station 14, which is essentially free software (minus some .net bullshit).

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Monday, 10-Jun-2024 18:43:13 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • SuperDicq
     • smug
     @smug @SuperDicq i'm almost entirely certain they just made that shit up because they think we're that dumb
   • Embed this notice
     smug@smuganimeavatar.xyz's status on Monday, 10-Jun-2024 18:43:14 JST smug

     in reply to

     • SuperDicq
     it's 300 GB *with* streaming :omegayou:
     :blobcathug: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Monday, 10-Jun-2024 18:48:47 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @icedquinn@blob.cat I really can't get myself to enjoy games where the developers have any sort of power over what the playerbase may enjoy whatsoever anymore.
     
     If the game is not community run, I'm not playing it.

   • Embed this notice
     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Monday, 10-Jun-2024 22:35:35 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • smug

     @icedquinn@blob.cat @smug@smuganimeavatar.xyz No game needs literally every surface covered in 4k uncompressed textures. Why would they willingly waste so much data on something that barely gives you any better of a graphical experience? They just made it up.
     
     There are games from 20 years ago that look better, not because of resolution and fancy effects, but simply because of better art direction.

   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Monday, 10-Jun-2024 22:41:29 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • SuperDicq
     @SuperDicq @icedquinn Game Studios never cared about compression, they simply dont know what that is...
     A common FitGirl Repack shrinks the size to 30% of what it is, on most Games probably more
   • Embed this notice
     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Monday, 10-Jun-2024 23:09:46 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • :blobcathug:

     @Jain@blob.cat @icedquinn@blob.cat That's archive compression, not actual compression of assets to make the end result smaller.

   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Monday, 10-Jun-2024 23:15:49 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • SuperDicq
     • Susanna
     @susie @SuperDicq @icedquinn its an extreme example... choose a different algo which has maybe 3-4% less compression rate but higher decompression rate and you will get a proper result...
     beside of that, im talking about lossless compression on file / archive basis...
     
     in any way, almost every game could be smaller than they are, usually studios simply dont care
   • Embed this notice
     Susanna (susie@blob.cat)'s status on Monday, 10-Jun-2024 23:15:52 JST Susanna

     in reply to

     • SuperDicq
     • :blobcathug:
     @Jain @SuperDicq @icedquinn Fitgirl also takes over 2h to install and the end result is as big anyways so might as well get your games uncompressed folders and skip the installation step.
     
     The 4k textures crowd was annoying back in Skyrim modding days too. Texture compression is very good nowadays and there were no difference between 1k compressed textures and 4k uncompressed textures most of the time. Also optimized meshes are where it's at, not brainlessly making SMIM-like meshes with 8k textures on top :blobcatgooglynotlikethis:
     
     Sorry, I got PTSD and got carried away.
   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Monday, 10-Jun-2024 23:16:35 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • SuperDicq
     @SuperDicq @icedquinn sure thats the point, lossless archive compression...
   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Monday, 10-Jun-2024 23:23:39 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • SuperDicq
     • Susanna
     @susie @SuperDicq @icedquinn there seems to be a missunderstanding, of course im talking avout asset compression, i took fitgirl as an example that most assets can be compressed way better than they are rn
   • Embed this notice
     Susanna (susie@blob.cat)'s status on Monday, 10-Jun-2024 23:23:41 JST Susanna

     in reply to

     • SuperDicq
     • :blobcathug:
     @Jain @SuperDicq @icedquinn Like I said: Fitgirl only compresses the installation media. The game after installation will not be any more compressed (read it will be uncompressed). So by downloading the files directly there is less space required due to not having to reserve a "installation media" space. Fitgirl stuff only saves bandwidth, not space.
     
     You CAN use compression on the drive level (even ntfs has had compression support a long time). It does yield space saving on games with uncompressed files with minimal CPU overhead. However most modern PC games are compressed and drive level compression doesn't do enough to be worth it for gaming.
   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Monday, 10-Jun-2024 23:27:03 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • SuperDicq
     • :blobcathug:
     • Susanna
     @susie @SuperDicq @icedquinn as long as the overall compression ratio is that good, you can take it as an example on how bad asset compression actually is. when asset compression would be good, then a repack wont have such a good compression ratio
   • Embed this notice
     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Monday, 10-Jun-2024 23:43:01 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • :blobcathug:
     • Susanna

     @Jain@blob.cat @susie@blob.cat @icedquinn@blob.cat

   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Tuesday, 11-Jun-2024 00:18:54 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • SuperDicq
     • Susanna
     @susie @SuperDicq @icedquinn
     > I think you're mixing real time compression with archival compression. Drive/file system compression is real time and fitgirl uses archival compression.
     No i dont
     
     > The game engines can't just use archival compressed files directly without them being first uncompressed.
     Yes i agree.
     
     > Extracting them to RAM during loading is an option, but it comes with obvious loading times and increased RAM usage.
     Loading times and RAM usage depends hardly on the selected algorithm and the RAM usage is only temporary anyway.
     As weird real time example in how compression can be i would show you this:
     https://www.postgresql.fastware.com/blog/what-is-the-new-lz4-toast-compression-in-postgresql-14
     Now imagine using LZ4 HC for Asset Compression, that should give you a very good compression ratio while decompression is still very fast and efficient.
     
     In general "Archival compression" and Asset compression dont differ that much since the only difference is the algorithm which got used and tbh there are more than enough usable Algorithms specific for this situation.
     
     I consider a Archive Compression Ratio of > 50% as okish, but most Games can be packed to 10-30% which shows that they never cared about Asset Compression at all or just use a bad algorithm.
     Usually when something is already compressed like deflated or an mp3 File, it has such a high entropy that you will have a bad compression ratio with all the Algorithms no matter what you choose. So the fact that most Games / Assets have such a low entropy is an indicator that they simply dont care at all
   • Embed this notice
     Susanna (susie@blob.cat)'s status on Tuesday, 11-Jun-2024 00:18:57 JST Susanna

     in reply to

     • SuperDicq
     • :blobcathug:
     @Jain @SuperDicq @icedquinn I think you're mixing real time compression with archival compression. Drive/file system compression is real time and fitgirl uses archival compression. The game engines can't just use archival compressed files directly without them being first uncompressed. Extracting them to RAM during loading is an option, but it comes with obvious loading times and increased RAM usage. Real time algorithms like ntfs and btrfs compression let the game engine access the compressed files "directly" without extracting them first due to the file system doing that transparently.
     
     Archival compression can be very aggressive and yield those kind of space savings as you said, but transparent compression is more latency critical and not yielding as good savings. So using Fitgirl ratios to claim asset compression sucks is misleading. Better argument would be to use file system compression ratios.
     
     Sorry for wall of text.
   • Embed this notice
     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Tuesday, 11-Jun-2024 01:50:11 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • :blobcathug:
     • Susanna

     @Jain@blob.cat @susie@blob.cat @icedquinn@blob.cat What I mean with games having a fetish for uncompressed assets nowadays is that they do not like compress the assets in terms of quality. Like using MP3 instead of WAV, most people won't hear the difference.
     
     And people especially won't see the difference between a 4K uncompressed wall texture and a 2K compressed one.

   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Tuesday, 11-Jun-2024 01:53:07 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • SuperDicq
     • Susanna
     @SuperDicq @icedquinn @susie sure, if i were a game dev i would check in the first place if its actually needed since lossless compression is quite good nowdays
   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Tuesday, 11-Jun-2024 01:53:22 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • SuperDicq
     • :blobcathug:
     • Susanna
     @SuperDicq @icedquinn @susie but in general i do agree
   • Embed this notice
     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Tuesday, 11-Jun-2024 01:54:51 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • :blobcathug:
     • Susanna

     @Jain@blob.cat @icedquinn@blob.cat @susie@blob.cat Yeah if you can reduce the space your game takes up on a hard drive by like 300% while having little to no visual degradation you should probably do that.

   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Tuesday, 11-Jun-2024 09:08:03 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • SuperDicq
     • :blobcathug:
     • Susanna
     @susie @Jain @SuperDicq :blobcatgrimacing: kinda both on the woozybus here. asset compression has its own problems and its ok because non-gamedevs generally don't know this but
     
     the graphics card doesn't speak JXL, and the sound card doesn't speak Opus, so you end up having to have decoder stages.
     
     For sound its been fine for decades as we have enough compute and RAM to just decode a little bit of mp3 at a time in to a buffer that gets pulled by the audio interface (the soundcard tells you when its sound time, we don't tell it)
     
     for textures its not as good because we do the equivalent of unpacking the jpeg-xl and saving it as a bmp file. that bmp file is basically how the image exists in vram. much, much larger file, quickly slurping your 4GBs.
     
     so instead we do a little texture compression, which uses algorithms that the GPU does happen to speak, and those tend to be significantly worse (both in terms of giving you shitty blocky graphics easier, but also only having 1:2 or 1:4 ratios, far worse than a naive clone of JP2K or anything) and on top of that it also makes the file kinda already compressed, so you can't then pack it again.
     
     games tend to just store stuff in these texture formats despite the size because you can immediately pop them open, slurp the texture size you want (they also tend to store the texture in 1/2 recursive sizes, for mipmap purposes) and jam it on the GPU, skipping unpacking steps, because the player has ADHD and is frothing at the loading screen in anger during this whole process.
     
     there are some tricks like basis universal that tries to find a way to store the textures 'mostly' compresed, so they can quickly finish the job based on the target GPU while still being able to pack it with zstd for shipping, which i've never used (but terry's neurons will activate at the mention of, and people do ship it)
   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Tuesday, 11-Jun-2024 09:10:16 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • SuperDicq
     • :blobcathug:
     • Susanna
     @susie @Jain @SuperDicq so barring any fancy tricks (like basis universal) you are somewhat stuck at your textures being roughtly .bmp files that are at best compressed to 1/4th that size. then add the players getting butthurt if every texture isn't 4k, and that is why everything is now 300+gb
   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Tuesday, 11-Jun-2024 09:17:17 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • SuperDicq
     • :blobcathug:
     • Susanna
     @Jain @susie @SuperDicq
     > don't care about asset compression at all
     we really don't :ablobcatderpy: if it fits on the blu-ray is the KPI. and avoiding the textures getting overcooked.
     
     on my end i have concerns like are my zip files rsyncable (i don't think they ever are?) or at least packed in the same order each time to maximize the amount the updater can save space (i don't think they are that either, idk about unity, or godot, but i think if you pack them with 7z you can make sure they are always alphabetical? might open a ticket about it) although even then they don't care that much because nowadays you just shit the deployment in to a steam depot and don't ask questions
     :blobcathug: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     :blobcathug: (jain@blob.cat)'s status on Tuesday, 11-Jun-2024 15:42:44 JST :blobcathug:

     in reply to

     • SuperDicq
     • Susanna
     @icedquinn @susie @SuperDicq i know that, all my texts are about disk <-> engine and there is still room for improvement, whatever can be unpacked from there should be a format which GPU understands
     iced depresso likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     SuperDicq (superdicq@minidisc.tokyo)'s status on Tuesday, 11-Jun-2024 17:18:05 JST SuperDicq

     in reply to

     • :blobcathug:
     • Susanna

     @icedquinn@blob.cat @Jain@blob.cat @susie@blob.cat if it fits on the blu-ray is the KPI.No, that was during the PS3 generation.
     Almost all games have online installers now, with most of the game not fitting on the disk.