"I'm so angry at Biden over Isreal/Gaza that I'm going to help Trump destroy democracy, weaponize the Justice system, send millions to deportation camps, lower the taxes on the wealthy and shift the burden to the middle class, cut Social Security, track and prosecute women having abortions, pardon the people who violently attacked Capitol police, dismantle NATO, help Russia, AND ON TOP OF ALL THAT do even more harm to Palestinians" is a take--it's just a really awful take, IMO.
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Augie Ray (augieray@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 00:14:13 JST 
Augie Ray
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 00:14:12 JST 
Evan Prodromou
"I love war so much that I'm going to ignore the position of the vast majority of my constituents and party members even though it endangers our chances of re-election in the Fall" is also a take.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 01:34:05 JST
Evan Prodromou
@augieray I do not think my reply was significantly more glib than your original post.
There is a lot that can be done to win back voters who are turned off of Biden because of the war. For example, emphasizing the leadership role the US has played in the ceasefire process. Getting food and medicine into Gaza. Conditioning aid.
Blaming people who oppose ethnic cleansing for the return of Trump isn't it, though.
I wish you good luck with your effort!
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Augie Ray (augieray@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 01:34:06 JST
Augie Ray
@evan I find that glib. Biden does not "love war." And I suspect you're mature and smart enough to understand he's between a rock and a hard place over support for Israel and Gaza. So, in the end, the choice is yours: You can be really, really angry at Biden and not vote, or you can do more to help the world and make Gaza safer by voting for Biden. Elections are not love affairs--you're selecting between flawed choices, not getting everything you want in a candidate.
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Kurt (flglchicago@mas.to)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 01:36:58 JST 
Kurt
@evan @augieray And that’s a childish take that sadly gets you blocked. Absolutely ridiculous to say that the current US president loves war, and such poor judgment that it makes me question everything you say and do here including motivation.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 01:54:45 JST
Evan Prodromou
@augieray Opposition to genocide is a peremptory norm or jus cogens. We don't get to opt out and say there are more important priorities. It's the highest priority.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 01:57:40 JST
Evan Prodromou
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Amoshias (amoshias@esq.social)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 01:57:41 JST 
Amoshias
@evan @augieray please provide the tiniest bit of evidence that Biden is ignoring the position of his constituents.
This is a straw man, you know it's a straw man, but you're putting it out there nevertheless.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 02:18:13 JST
Evan Prodromou
@FLGLchicago @augieray so, first of all, I think it's defensible to say that Joe Biden is pro-war. He has voted for every major war since Vietnam, which he neither supported nor opposed. He did oppose the Reagan-era secret wars in Central America, which is to his credit.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 02:21:14 JST
Evan Prodromou
@FLGLchicago @augieray the fact that a majority of Americans and a supermajority of Democrats oppose the war is easy to Google.
https://www.axios.com/2024/03/27/majority-americans-disapprove-israel-gaza-poll
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 02:24:52 JST
Evan Prodromou
@FLGLchicago @augieray the question of whether a candidate and campaign should change their policy or platform to garner more votes is a difficult one. On the one hand, responsiveness to public opinion is one of the goals of representative democracy. On the other, standing firm on principle is sometimes necessary even in the face of losing an election. I guess the question is, is support of the war in Gaza a principle worth losing an election over.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 02:29:06 JST
Evan Prodromou
@FLGLchicago @MikeImBack @augieray I think that's unfair, given the similar tone in the post I was replying to, but if you find it so bad, I will change it.
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Mike. 🩼🇨🇦 (mikeimback@disabled.social)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 02:29:07 JST 
Mike. 🩼🇨🇦
@FLGLchicago @evan @augieray millions of Americans feel that way already and have since the last election. Biden needs to INCREASE his support, not turn them away. This has always been Biden's election to lose
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Kurt (flglchicago@mas.to)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 02:29:07 JST
Kurt
@MikeImBack @evan @augieray I disagree with that logic from its foundations, having seen the awful practical outcomes of that kind of positioning over the decades. But that’s not what I’m objecting to here: it’s the premise that this president “loves war.” It’s either a childish or a repulsive take, or both, and it’s Musk-level whackadoodle hyperbole, useless and dangerous.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 02:37:34 JST
Evan Prodromou
@augieray I don't think there is a worse possible outcome than the Kahanist goal of eradication of Palestinians from Gaza.
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Augie Ray (augieray@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 02:37:35 JST
Augie Ray
@evan Thanks. I'd suggest you stop worrying so much about "blame" and instead worry about how to make the entire world--including Gaza--safer. The way to do so is NOT to help the guy Netanyahu wants to win.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 03:27:26 JST
Evan Prodromou
@augieray @Amoshias I hate Donald Trump, but I don't know if what you say is strictly true. His form of nationalist populism largely withdrew the US from overseas interventions. He did, however, support provocative activities in Israel like moving the embassy to Jerusalem.
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Augie Ray (augieray@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 03:27:27 JST
Augie Ray
@evan @Amoshias And there will be more war if Trump is elected.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 06:01:07 JST
Evan Prodromou
@textualdeviance @augieray @Amoshias who said that? I'm just saying, having lived through some hawkish administrations, I don't think that a Trump administration is as likely to find reasons to go to war as, say, the first Bush administration. You make a good point that a less engaged US may result in more wars between other parties, though.
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Texty the Bard (textualdeviance@retro.pizza)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 06:01:08 JST 
Texty the Bard
@evan @augieray @Amoshias Also, "I don't care if Trump outright murders millions of Americans if he also pulls us out of NATO" is one hell of a take.
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Texty the Bard (textualdeviance@retro.pizza)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 06:01:09 JST
Texty the Bard
@evan @augieray @Amoshias Generic anti-interventionism doesn't stop war. It just lets monsters like Putin do whatever they feel like doing.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 06:11:09 JST
Evan Prodromou
@Amoshias @textualdeviance @augieray whew. Not sure. He was really bad, but we survived a country, which I wasn't always confident of. I'd say, he was not quite as bad as my worst fears, but he got close.
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Amoshias (amoshias@esq.social)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 06:11:10 JST
Amoshias
@evan @textualdeviance @augieray so in the past, has Trump lived up to your expectations?
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 07:46:15 JST
Evan Prodromou
@textualdeviance @Amoshias @augieray I meant, there is still a United States.
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Texty the Bard (textualdeviance@retro.pizza)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 07:46:16 JST
Texty the Bard
@evan @Amoshias @augieray "We" survived? And the million-plus COVID deaths due to completely fucked up handling of the pandemic are meaningless, I guess?
Also, I'll remind you that had Democrats not taken the House in 2018, things would have been much, much worse. He won't make that mistake again. Believe him when he tells you he wants to go full dictator.
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XDarwinAwardsX for Harris-Walz (xdarwinawardsx@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 07:49:06 JST
XDarwinAwardsX for Harris-Walz
@yith @Amoshias @seb321 @augieray @evan The White House just stopped a shipment of offensive weapons there because of what is going on in Rafah. Look it up.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 07:49:06 JST
Evan Prodromou
@XDarwinAwardsX @yith @Amoshias @seb321 @augieray This is good news.
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Yith (yith@mas.to)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 07:49:09 JST 
Yith
@Amoshias @seb321 @augieray @evan
Downplaying Biden's complicity in this genocide isn't going to convince anyone who's unhappy with him. Biden has continued to resupply Israel and vetoed a UN resolution for a ceasefire
That's not doing an insufficient amount to stop the genocide, that is active support. Trying to frame it any other way comes of as completely disingenuous
If we want Biden to win re-election, the very least we can do is admit that there is currently no anti-genocide candidate
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Amoshias (amoshias@esq.social)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 07:49:10 JST
Amoshias
@seb321 @augieray @evan so, given the exact circumstances you are describing, you would vote for the person who has explicitly advocated genocide over the person who is merely doing an insufficient amount to stop it?
Or alternately, you would stay at home, not willing to vote for the person who has done an insufficient amount to stop it, knowing that meant increasing the likelihood that the person who explicitly advocated genocide would get into power.
That doesn't make sense to me.
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Seb (seb321@toot.community)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 07:49:11 JST 
Seb
@augieray @evan And if a leader was supporting a regime killing your children you’d still vote for them as the lesser of two evils? I mean I get it - I’m as terrified of Trump 2 as anyone, but this isn’t an easy decision for anyone so a little bit of empathy does help rather than “you’re stoopid if you don’t vote”.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 07:50:13 JST
Evan Prodromou
@Amoshias @textualdeviance @augieray Wow, that sounds terrible, to be chased out of your own country.
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Amoshias (amoshias@esq.social)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 07:50:14 JST
Amoshias
@evan @textualdeviance @augieray So based on that... "We survived as a country"...
You are willing to assume that Trump's not going to start any wars.
That's...
Interesting.
Meanwhile, I and every other Jew I know are making plans to flee the country, so I certainly hope that your assumption that Trump won't start any wars, based - as it is - on absolute nothing, is correct.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 08:01:29 JST
Evan Prodromou
@yith @Amoshias @seb321 @augieray They vetoed *three* ceasefire resolutions, *and* the resolution to recognize the State of Palestine.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 08:03:41 JST
Evan Prodromou
@FLGLchicago @augieray It's OK to change your mind and engage in a better way.
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Kurt (flglchicago@mas.to)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 08:03:42 JST
Kurt
@augieray @evan And then the guy tries to edit and delete, as if he could erase.
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Kurt (flglchicago@mas.to)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 08:03:43 JST
Kurt
@evan @augieray Seriously feel like leaving this place after seeing this today.
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Augie Ray (augieray@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 08:03:43 JST
Augie Ray
@FLGLchicago @evan Well, this place needs people like you and me to speak sense. I hope you stay.
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Kurt (flglchicago@mas.to)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 08:03:43 JST
Kurt
@augieray @evan It’s like listening to Dorsey and then Musk in the other place, and I was happy to leave there after 15 years. Nobody needs it.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 08:07:34 JST
Evan Prodromou
@adriano @seb321 @augieray there are hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Americans. Probably only a small subset have children in Gaza right now, but they probably care about people in Gaza in the same way Korean Americans care about their family in Korea or Portuguese Americans care about their family in Portugal.
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Adriano (adriano@lile.cl)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 08:07:36 JST 
Adriano
I don't understand that venn diagram intersection. A person who is an USA citizen who can vote in those elections, and who also has Palestinian children who are dying?
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 08:19:08 JST
Evan Prodromou
@MikeImBack @FLGLchicago @augieray That's interesting. I'm not entirely sure that's the case; the withdrawal agreement had already been negotiated by the previous administration. However, an adamant warmonger could have breached the agreement and kept troops in Afghanistan, so not doing that is definitely a point in the Biden administration's favour.
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Mike. 🩼🇨🇦 (mikeimback@disabled.social)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 08:19:09 JST
Mike. 🩼🇨🇦
@FLGLchicago @evan @augieray if he loved war he wouldn't have pulled out of America's longest war. anyone arguing that he does is an idiot. he's just stuck in a bad place and making the purely wrong choice
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 08:21:00 JST
Evan Prodromou
@MikeImBack @FLGLchicago @augieray I do think that Biden is part of the 20th century interventionist consensus in Washington politics. He is comfortable with using military power, directly and indirectly. As I mentioned in another thread, he voted for every major war since Vietnam, with the exception of the secret contra warfare, which again, is a point in his favour.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 08:28:41 JST
Evan Prodromou
@bananarama @FLGLchicago @augieray So, just to be clear: I am not anti-Zionist. I believe in the right of the Jewish people to self-determination, and I believe that they can and should exercise that right in Israel. I believe the people of Israel have a right to live in peace and safety in their home.
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Iridium Zeppelin (bananarama@mstdn.social)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 08:28:42 JST 
Iridium Zeppelin
@FLGLchicago @evan @augieray There is a lot of really crummy stuff on Mastodon today that makes me feel like leaving. For example, anti-Semitism has exploded.
Evan does not control the fediverse or mastodon, and every instance has its own vibe and its own rules. For that reason, I still believe that it's a better option to be among friends here. I think the problems are just human problems in general - they seem to crop up regardless of a complex algorithm promoting them.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 08:31:42 JST
Evan Prodromou
@bananarama @FLGLchicago @augieray I also think the Netanyahu government, and especially the Kahanist faction -- Smotrich, Ben Gvir, and others -- are conducting an ethnic cleansing in Gaza with the goal of expelling or killing as much of the Palestinian population as possible. I can't find a way to accept that.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 08:31:43 JST
Evan Prodromou
@bananarama @FLGLchicago @augieray I wish I could say that I don't have any antisemitic prejudices, but I have as many as anyone raised and educated in the United States on the Western canon, which means probably a lot. I try to proactively correct them myself, and I appreciate getting called out on them.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 08:34:55 JST
Evan Prodromou
@Amoshias @textualdeviance @augieray I'm not. Nobody should have to go through that.
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Amoshias (amoshias@esq.social)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 08:34:56 JST
Amoshias
@evan @textualdeviance @augieray you say that like you think you are making some incredible point :-)
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 08:41:33 JST
Evan Prodromou
@textualdeviance @Amoshias @augieray Sorry to hear that.
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Texty the Bard (textualdeviance@retro.pizza)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 08:41:34 JST
Texty the Bard
@evan @Amoshias @augieray I have extended family who had to evacuate *Israel* because of shit going down. The majority of Israelis don't want Bibi in office, much less doing what he's doing (have you seen the scale of the protests?) But they also don't want to be targets for Hamas, Iran or any of the other hostile entities in the region. The whole area is an absolute mess, all because assholes are fighting over who's entitled to own all of it. And Biden can't change that. No one can.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 08:44:46 JST
Evan Prodromou
@textualdeviance @augieray So, @Amoshias asked if Trump has lived up to my expectations. I thought about it sincerely, and tried to think back to 2016, and about how bad I expected things to get under Trump, and that they didn't quite get as bad as I was worried they would.
I am not trying to say that Trump was not very, very terrible and that he did, and continues to do, extreme damage to the USA and the rest of the world.
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Texty the Bard (textualdeviance@retro.pizza)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 08:44:48 JST
Texty the Bard
@evan @Amoshias @augieray There is still a Russia under Putin. Doesn't mean it's not a fucked-up mess with sham elections and violent oppression.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 10:06:03 JST
Evan Prodromou
That said: I'm sorry I said buh-bye when you said I was so childish you were going to block me.
I didn't think my post was far off in tone from Augie's. You obviously disagreed.
I could tell you were pretty upset, and I shouldn't have acted as if a block from you didn't matter to me.
Every time someone disagrees with me, it's a chance to learn something new. So, I should have engaged better.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 12:19:39 JST
Evan Prodromou
In 2016, I was worried he was going to use nukes.
He didn't.
That's why it wasn't as bad as I was worried about.
That doesn't mean it wasn't very bad.
"Not as bad as I was worried about" is a pretty low bar here.
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Texty the Bard (textualdeviance@retro.pizza)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 12:19:40 JST
Texty the Bard
@evan @augieray Let me guess: You're a cishet guy. Probably white. Yes? Because if you don't think loading up SCOTUS with a bunch of theocrats and laying waste to the legal principle of the right to privacy is dire, then it's clearly because you don't think you've lost anything, nor stand to lose more.
Wonder if you'll still feel the same when they ban porn.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 12:22:53 JST
Evan Prodromou
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Kurt (flglchicago@mas.to)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 12:22:54 JST
Kurt
@evan @augieray Aight. I’m sorry too. Thank you for taking the time to come back to this. Intersection of bad moments for both of us. We could both pay more attention to how we react to and frame things. Too much at stake here, both in the real world and on services like this, and if we have differences they’re not as important as the consequences of the practical outcomes we unintentionally contribute to in our less than stellar moments.
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Evan Prodromou (evan@cosocial.ca)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 20:39:00 JST
Evan Prodromou
@bananarama @FLGLchicago @augieray OK. Well, I got a chance to say where I stand on a lot of things, which I needed to do at some point anyway.
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Iridium Zeppelin (bananarama@mstdn.social)'s status on Wednesday, 08-May-2024 20:39:01 JST
Iridium Zeppelin
@evan @FLGLchicago @augieray
I did not mean to imply you had made an anti-Semitic comment or held anti-Semitic opinions, sorry.I was trying to persuade Kurt to stay despite his frustration, he's beyond that point though.
Thanks for explaining and remaining calm and respectful.
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