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Michael Gemar (michaelgemar@mstdn.ca)'s status on Monday, 25-Mar-2024 09:00:54 JST Michael Gemar
- Church of Jeff
- LillyLyle/Count Melancholia
@jeffowski @LillyHerself Does this stance rule out incarceration for legal infractions?

In conversation about a year ago from mstdn.ca permalink
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  Church of Jeff (jeffowski@mastodon.world)'s status on Monday, 25-Mar-2024 09:00:34 JST Church of Jeff
  in reply to
  @michaelgemar @markvonwahlde @livinghell @LillyHerself @petealexharris — every time someone brings up “the greater good,” it always requires some underprivileged person to give up something and it always benefits someone powerful.
  
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  Michael Gemar (michaelgemar@mstdn.ca)'s status on Monday, 25-Mar-2024 09:00:39 JST Michael Gemar
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  @markvonwahlde @livinghell @LillyHerself @petealexharris @jeffowski Exactly. It’s a minor violation of their bodily autonomy for a greater good.
  
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  Mark vW (markvonwahlde@mastodon.world)'s status on Monday, 25-Mar-2024 09:00:41 JST Mark vW
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  @michaelgemar @livinghell @LillyHerself @petealexharris @jeffowski Vaccines are forced on people who can tolerate the vaccine because the benefit to our herd is great compared to the minor inconvenience (esp. the benefit to people who can't tolerate the vaccine (and who therefore aren't forced to get vaccinated)).
  
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  Michael Gemar (michaelgemar@mstdn.ca)'s status on Monday, 25-Mar-2024 09:00:43 JST Michael Gemar
  in reply to
  @livinghell @LillyHerself @petealexharris @jeffowski That account of vaccines still seems to challenge bodily autonomy to me. We don’t force diabetics to take insulin, or a cancer patient to undergo chemotherapy, even if in both cases it would be objectively better for them in the long run. I think vaccines are about *public* health, and requiring them justified because of how that impacts others.
  
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  livinghell (livinghell@kolektiva.social)'s status on Monday, 25-Mar-2024 09:00:44 JST livinghell
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  @michaelgemar @LillyHerself @petealexharris @jeffowski Paternalistic here is used in the sense that we are looking at the person in question from a position of authority. Like a parent does. But parents often over step their boundaries and we are not this person's parent. These are all well and very true. But it does not preclude the possibility that when someone rejects vaccination, and when we scientifically know the vaccine in question and its side effects, we are in actuality at a position of authority in relation to this person. Explaining and educating people would make the field equal. But when it's not possible, making a decision either way is equally paternalistic, because you are responsible for what you know about this person's health, no matter what they do or do not, or dont want to know. This is a clear cut justified use of knowledge. Frontal lobotomy is not. It's clearly on the other side of that line, if it needs to be mentioned. Or much anything parents do with regards to their teenage kids (cause they don't have the authority of science to speak on how to live in general, no one does.)
  
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  livinghell (livinghell@kolektiva.social)'s status on Monday, 25-Mar-2024 09:00:46 JST livinghell
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  @michaelgemar @LillyHerself @petealexharris @jeffowski Autonomy is not a mathematical concept. That is to say, it does not necessarily exclude its opposite. Vaccines for example, getting forced vaccines make you immune so more able to make your own decisions with your body in the long term. Letting someone cage themselves inside a mural would also be technically autonomy. it depends on how you conceptualize the absolute, rather than a logically demanded gradualist framework.
  
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  Michael Gemar (michaelgemar@mstdn.ca)'s status on Monday, 25-Mar-2024 09:00:46 JST Michael Gemar
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  @livinghell @LillyHerself @petealexharris @jeffowski I’m very pro-vaccine, but I think it’s questionable to say that forcing someone to get one because it will be better for them in the long run takes a rather paternalistic view of bodily autonomy. Other, more drastic medical interventions have been justified that way.
  (I think universal vaccines are justified because they let *others* act without fear of infection.)
  
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  Michael Gemar (michaelgemar@mstdn.ca)'s status on Monday, 25-Mar-2024 09:00:49 JST Michael Gemar
  in reply to
  @LillyHerself @petealexharris @jeffowski It’s a fascinating domain (I’d add vaccination to the list). Like many rights in the social area, I’m not sure that an an absolute right to bodily autonomy can be maintained, although under what circumstances one can have that right superceded is sticky, and having a framework for questions like this seems critical.
  
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  LillyLyle/Count Melancholia (lillyherself@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 25-Mar-2024 09:00:50 JST LillyLyle/Count Melancholia
  in reply to
  - Church of Jeff
  - Pete Alex Harris🦡🕸️🌲/∞🪐∫
  @michaelgemar @petealexharris @jeffowski There was a conference in Edinburgh about 10 years ago on the subject of Who Owns Your Body?, that specifically wanted to examine issues around medically assisted dying, organ donation, that kind of thing.
  There is also the question of compulsory conscription into the armed forces, and women still in our time face a lack of bodily autonomy in many different ways.
  
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  Michael Gemar (michaelgemar@mstdn.ca)'s status on Monday, 25-Mar-2024 09:00:52 JST Michael Gemar
  in reply to
  @petealexharris @jeffowski @LillyHerself My question wasn’t meant to be a “gotcha” — I’m genuinely curious as to the tension between bodily autonomy and legitimate state power.
  
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  Pete Alex Harris🦡🕸️🌲/∞🪐∫ (petealexharris@mastodon.scot)'s status on Monday, 25-Mar-2024 09:00:53 JST Pete Alex Harris🦡🕸️🌲/∞🪐∫
  in reply to
  - Church of Jeff
  - LillyLyle/Count Melancholia
  @michaelgemar @jeffowski @LillyHerself
  No.
  
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  Mark vW (markvonwahlde@mastodon.world)'s status on Monday, 25-Mar-2024 13:03:35 JST Mark vW
  in reply to
  @jeffowski @michaelgemar @livinghell @LillyHerself @petealexharris Is there NEVER symbiosis?
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink

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