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1. Embed this notice
   Dragoon Aethis (dragoonaethis@mstdn.social)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 19:59:00 JST Dragoon Aethis

   A tiny sliver of hell froze over: https://postmarketos.org/blog/2024/03/05/adding-systemd/

   >Is Alpine cool with this?
   (Most likely) absolutely not, but please keep going

   • Embed this notice
     Wolf480pl (wolf480pl@mstdn.io)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 19:58:58 JST Wolf480pl

     in reply to

     @dragoonaethis that's just one person from the Alpine dev team right?

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Dragoon Aethis (dragoonaethis@mstdn.social)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 19:58:59 JST Dragoon Aethis

     in reply to

     ...it appears I need to eat my words: https://social.treehouse.systems/@ariadne/112044941290779320

   • Embed this notice
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 19:59:50 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • Wolf480pl
     @wolf480pl @dragoonaethis Yeah, that said Alpine governance is a really weird thing.
   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 20:01:11 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • Wolf480pl
     @lanodan @wolf480pl @dragoonaethis
     > You heard it here first folks: systemd is coming to postmarketOS
     ☠️
   • Embed this notice
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 20:04:39 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Wolf480pl
     @icedquinn @wolf480pl @dragoonaethis Was kind of doomed to happen, Telephony/MobileData/Bluetooth/… on linux without systemd is quite a mess and the "rewrite all of QtMobile in Gnome instead" headed by Librem likely didn't help at all.
   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 20:05:36 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • Wolf480pl
     @lanodan @wolf480pl @dragoonaethis skimming over the mastodont thread to see what their actual complaints about s6 are.
     
     so far all i see is just people shitting about "we have to maintain adapters because everyone else has just given in to poettering" though
   • Embed this notice
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 20:09:56 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Wolf480pl
     @icedquinn @wolf480pl @dragoonaethis Yeah, because if you'd want to actually have an alternative, then you'd need to do a lot of work and get things right enough that it's a compelling enough alternative to systemd for third-party software to support your stuff.
   • Embed this notice
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 20:12:36 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • iced depresso
     • Wolf480pl
     @icedquinn @dragoonaethis @wolf480pl It's quite like how you had PulseAudio pretty much ruling over until PipeWire, because the alternatives were significantly worse. (Or even "you live like this?" with alsa)
   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 20:13:32 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • Wolf480pl
     @lanodan @wolf480pl @dragoonaethis pipewire is good but the only reason it works is because it speaks poettershit.
   • Embed this notice
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 20:16:36 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Wolf480pl
     @icedquinn @wolf480pl @dragoonaethis Yeah, because you don't change well over 10+ years of usage instantly.
     So yeah a systemd alternative would need some adapters, but in the case of things like udev they ended up *worse*, I think seatd is the only one where it's significantly better.
   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 20:18:35 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • Wolf480pl
     @lanodan @wolf480pl @dragoonaethis its that classical problem of stuff like photoshop where you ask people what they would accept for an alternative and everyone just says "something that works exactly like this" to which they are basically admitting no alternative is possible.
     
     you'd have to reimplement the entire interface including the bad ideas :/
   • Embed this notice
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 20:22:14 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Wolf480pl
     @icedquinn @wolf480pl @dragoonaethis I think you could have something meh as an adapter a bit like wine would do for windows stuff, but with the clear idea that you can do a migration to a better one.
     
     This was not done, the systemd adapters where for compatibility with legacy systems, like apulse is, not something like pipewire.
   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 20:35:45 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • Wolf480pl
     @wolf480pl i would have been less blackpilled if poettershit had actually won in a marketplace of ideas.
     
     in reality it just rode red hat forcing the issue each time and then people just normalcy bias around it until it becomes permanent.
     
     now we're stuck with this absolute garbage because of the power of mediocretes.
     
     @dragoonaethis @lanodan
   • Embed this notice
     Wolf480pl (wolf480pl@mstdn.io)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 20:35:46 JST Wolf480pl

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • iced depresso

     @icedquinn @dragoonaethis @lanodan
     In practice systemd is pretty good.

     I think its design is bad in principle, but the only practical concer I see is that a lot of software will start relying on its APIs. Judging by the postmarketOS blogpost, that ship has already sailed.

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 20:36:28 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • iced depresso
     • Wolf480pl
     @wolf480pl @dragoonaethis @lanodan from what i recall the debian vote was literally "red hat does it" and once debian fell that was the end of it
   • Embed this notice
     Wolf480pl (wolf480pl@mstdn.io)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 21:43:49 JST Wolf480pl

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • iced depresso

     @lanodan @dragoonaethis
     Also @icedquinn if you don't like it that pmOS or alpine folks no longer want to maintain these adapters then go and maintain them yourself.

     I agree they should exist, but I totally underatand people getting tired of maintaining them.

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Mar-2024 07:37:49 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • Wolf480pl
     @wolf480pl @dragoonaethis @lanodan boilerplate is one of the reasons i don't use stuff other than nim unless i'm being paid.
     
     c code is just honestly too painful to put up with.
   • Embed this notice
     Wolf480pl (wolf480pl@mstdn.io)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Mar-2024 07:37:50 JST Wolf480pl

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • iced depresso

     @icedquinn @dragoonaethis @lanodan
     clarification: I don't actually think pipewire is trash.

     It's quite impressive what it can do, and I'm sure a lot of work went into it.

     Still, the code is full of weird object-oriented boilerplate with factories and stuff, which I find painful to read. I'm told people who are used to reading gstreamer source code find this easier. Still, pulseaudio code is way more readable in comparison.

   • Embed this notice
     Wolf480pl (wolf480pl@mstdn.io)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Mar-2024 07:37:51 JST Wolf480pl

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • iced depresso

     @icedquinn @dragoonaethis @lanodan pipewire is trash, have you seen the sourcecode?

   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Mar-2024 07:40:25 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • iced depresso
     • Wolf480pl
     @wolf480pl @dragoonaethis @lanodan main issue i have with a lot of get-what-you-are-given language comes down to that. once you've determines some set of stanzas is indeed how you want to handle all of your objects... in TCL or Lisp you just make a macro. Now you move on with your lives.
     
     in C you have to bloat the code up with the same stanzas all the time. even though we already know this is what a gobject does, this is how we iterate the iterators, and so on, but the language doesn't afford us a way to agree on that and move on.
     
     so.. yeah. i can see that. gstreamer is one of those APIs that looks like dogshit because the bookkeeping can't be abstracted in a sensible way. (there is going away with OOP stuff entirely, but that carries... other costs. in something like nim or rust i don't really have to choose though.)
   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Mar-2024 07:47:46 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • Wolf480pl
     @wolf480pl @dragoonaethis @lanodan i wrote kernel drivers and we didn't really use macros for that :blobcatterrified:
   • Embed this notice
     Wolf480pl (wolf480pl@mstdn.io)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Mar-2024 07:47:47 JST Wolf480pl

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • iced depresso

     @icedquinn @dragoonaethis @lanodan
     Ok, now look at Linux kernel. Or wlroots. Or something from OpenBSD, eg. OpenSMTPD.

     They have some objects, with some inheritance, and and some of those have virtual methods.

     They also have generic collection types.

     And you know what? There's nowhere near as much boilerplate as there's with gobject.

     Because they have a few macros.

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Wolf480pl (wolf480pl@mstdn.io)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Mar-2024 07:48:28 JST Wolf480pl

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • iced depresso

     @icedquinn @dragoonaethis @lanodan
     WDYM?
     No container_of?

   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Mar-2024 07:48:28 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • Wolf480pl
     @wolf480pl @dragoonaethis @lanodan No. Raw input/HID drivers. It was all classical C code.
   • Embed this notice
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Mar-2024 07:49:14 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Wolf480pl
     @wolf480pl @icedquinn @dragoonaethis Yeah, it's more tasteful API and library design kind of stuff rather than "$language bad" or "OOP bad".
   • Embed this notice
     Wolf480pl (wolf480pl@mstdn.io)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Mar-2024 07:49:15 JST Wolf480pl

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • iced depresso

     @icedquinn @dragoonaethis @lanodan
     Well, and a lot of good judgement on what macros to make.

   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Mar-2024 07:49:24 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • Wolf480pl
     @lanodan @wolf480pl @dragoonaethis i still believe C makes it significantly harder to maintain tasteful APIs.
   • Embed this notice
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Mar-2024 07:51:38 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Wolf480pl
     @icedquinn @wolf480pl @dragoonaethis All programming languages have constraints and you need to work well in those.
     Don't be Stephen R. Bourne (of Bourne Shell fame) and transform C into a bastard version of ALGOL.
   • Embed this notice
     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Mar-2024 07:53:57 JST iced depresso

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • Wolf480pl
     @lanodan @wolf480pl @dragoonaethis if i had anything to do with a language these days, it would look more like terralua: running an interpreter that builds up code objects and then ejects them out as a binary once its all said and over with.
     
     the base language wouldn't give you much more than what ANSI C already did, and then just let people import constructs after the fact.
   • Embed this notice
     Wolf480pl (wolf480pl@mstdn.io)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Mar-2024 07:55:58 JST Wolf480pl

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • iced depresso

     @icedquinn @dragoonaethis @lanodan
     like, how do you write a driver without using this: https://kernelnewbies.org/FAQ/LinkedLists

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Wolf480pl (wolf480pl@mstdn.io)'s status on Tuesday, 12-Mar-2024 07:56:00 JST Wolf480pl

     in reply to

     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
     • iced depresso

     @icedquinn @dragoonaethis @lanodan
     ok but like

     did you have a double-linked-list anywhere in the code?

     Normally in Linux kernel when you need a list, you include struct list_head inside your struct that you want to keep on the list.

     Then when you retrieve something from the list, you get a pointer to the struct list_head, and you use container_of to get at your own struct that contains the list_head