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   🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Mar-2024 06:10:24 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

   Question for the women out htere.

   Say you are wearing a fairly revealing top but more or less clothed in public. Lets say something that shows a lot of cleavage. If a man you are talking to clearly looks down at your chest, remains with eye contact for a solid 2 seconds, then looks back up, but otherwise is speaking respectfully to you would you say anything? If so what would you say? Regardless of what you would say how would it make you feel or what would think when you notice it.

   Similarly, and this seems odd cause I cant imagine a guy doing this and it would seem really awkward/strange to do. But would you feel its more respectful and more appropriate if the guy asked permission to look at your chest rather than just doing it? Does that just add awkwardness and make matters worse (what it seems like in my head) or would you see it as a sign of respect? How would they even ask permission in a respectful way "May I look at your breasts for a few seconds", that just seems weird to me to ask... but hey just curious.

   I suspect most women just expect us not to loo, or to try to be sneaky about it?

   • Embed this notice
     IMPROVE PEOPLE _NOT JUST TECH_ (freeschool@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Mar-2024 06:21:35 JST IMPROVE PEOPLE _NOT JUST TECH_

     in reply to

     @freemo It is a bit like looking at fruits, though it's connected to a person, still don't think it's really possible to ignore same if I had half my ass hanging out... hang on I'll get a picture of that... [searching thru pics now as a test... lol... excuse the butt hair!]

   • Embed this notice
     John BS (johnabs@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Mar-2024 06:27:43 JST John BS

     in reply to

     @freemo 2 whole seconds?? At that point just take a picture, it'll last longer :P

     The general rule is "If the amount of time you're looking would damage your retinas from looking at the sun at noon during summer, it's too long of a glance". There is a difference between "noticing", "looking", "staring", and 2 solid seconds is straddling the line of the latter two, and the first is universally fine, but that's like 0.5-0.75 seconds.

     As an aside, nearly all (more on this below) women know what they're signing up for when the go out dressed a certain way, so don't ask, don't stare, but a passing glance, even if she notices, is likely acceptable, though this depends on the woman and her understanding of male psychology as a function of her dressing habits.

     I had to have this conversation with my (then girlfriend) wife about how she was drawing attention to herself with her very tight fitting crop-tops and short shorts. Her mom did some strange parenting to her daughters, so my wife didn't know until I spelled it out and then she was mortified at how men were looking at her. She just thought they were "being friendly" 🤦♂️

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Mar-2024 09:07:20 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • John BS

     @johnabs

     So sorry for late response, busy day.

     I picked 2 seconds intentionally. I wanted a number that was not so long as to be staring, but long enough that it would be clear it was intentional and not something someone was trying to hide, or accidental.

     While your answer about "treat it like the sun" does make sense when accessing where the line is I am particularly curious about this case. More important how it would make the woman feel, would she feel attractive and liked, or would it make her feel bad for some reason i dont fully understand (but instinctually adhere to I guess).

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Mar-2024 09:07:57 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • IMPROVE PEOPLE _NOT JUST TECH_

     @freeschool How is it like looking at fruit? I feel like I could stare at fruit all day and no one would be bothered.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Mar-2024 09:10:51 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • casey is remote

     @realcaseyrollins What is TRP? The first I am seeing it and when looking upt he hashtag it seems to mostly be posts by you or posts in a foreign language.

     There is clearly a divide in how men and women thing, and this may come from being treated different. But long and short of it, men generally seem to be thrilled at being cat called or ask explicitly sexual things, at worst we can just ignore it. Things that would be totally unacceptable to a woman... So yea im not sure the logic of men will carry over here, cause if a woman stared at my crotch for however long Id be excited by that even if its a woman im not interested in.

   • Embed this notice
     casey is remote (realcaseyrollins@noauthority.social)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Mar-2024 09:10:52 JST casey is remote

     in reply to

     @freemo

     One thing I think #TRP is actually right about after seeing some interviews with feminists is that women sometimes dress provocatively for themselves, because they look good, not because they're trying to attract men.

     But TBF it still baffles me that women often find men finding them attractive to be creepy by default.

   • Embed this notice
     John BS (johnabs@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Mar-2024 11:22:05 JST John BS

     in reply to

     @freemo No problem.

     As for the question in terms of how she would feel: it depends on if she likes you. And this isn't a woman only thing.

     Let's imagine the inverse scenario: you're wearing fairly tight shorts and *insert movie star/celebrity you find attractive here* walks up to you, eyes your bulge for "a solid 2 seconds" and then continues talking to you respectfully. Well, if you consider a lot of factors (e.g. are you married, is she married, do you find her attractive, etc) you'll come to a conclusion as to whether you appreciated the gesture (note this happens in milliseconds and is not a conscious decision). Now, imagine instead of *movie star/celebrity you find attractive* we have the human personification of Roz from Monster's Inc do the same thing. You may not appreciate the same gesture, because you may not find her attractive.

     Now, let's imagine that in either of these scenarios, the woman in question asks you "hey, can I look at your bulge for a few seconds"? I imagine most men would respond either internally or externally in the following ways: a) is this a prank? Is she serious? Why would she want to? b) That's a really weird question to ask, and the fact that she did so means I kinda don't want her to, or c) Sure, ogle away. Though I suspect most people would fall into categories a or b.

     So, overall, all people judge behaviors, particularly ones in a semi-intimate context, based on how the evaluate the person. If they like the person or are interested in them as a potential partner, this helps "smooth over any rough edges" the person in question may display. However, if a person has already judged you as someone they are either ambivalent towards or actively dislike, this magnifies the impact of behavior that is close to "the line" and may even move the line further away from this sort of behavior.

     All this to say: you can't apply the same behavior to different contexts with different subjective personal preferences and expect the same result, so the question is kinda pointless unless you're directing it to a specific individual with a specific target and context in mind.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Mar-2024 11:26:02 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • John BS

     @johnabs

     Actually as a male I'd say if an unattractive woman hits on me my just staring at my junk or my ass, I'd be flattered.

     Only time id feel bad by it is if they are getting handsy or insisting they get something from me I dont want to give. But if its simply compliments and staring, and if they respect whatever boundaries I put up, then I would be nothing but overjoyed whether the woman is attractive or not.

     That said I do agree, asking would probably be met with weird reactions and unfavorable responses for both sexes just because its just a weird thing to ask. But from the male perspective since I think most males would love someone "checking them out" im not sure there is a need to ask or the awkwardness that comes. Women on the other hand wouldnt be so enthused with the staring so its a differnet equation.

   • Embed this notice
     John BS (johnabs@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Mar-2024 11:33:11 JST John BS

     in reply to

     @freemo

     Right, but keep in mind that there is an inherent risk to having a "bad" man interested in you (as in, one who is unwilling to respect your decision if you don't consent to sexual or romantic behavior), so women are more risk averse (on average) in this area than men are, and with good reason since men (on average) are much stronger than women.

     So for you touching may be where the line of discomfort is but that may be because you're confident in your ability to put a stop to things before they get out of hand. Now, imagine the woman staring at you was built like a 7 foot linebacker that had poor social skills and didn't understand the word "no", and who had a non-zero chance of forcing herself on you with you not being able to put up the necessary resistance. Perhaps at that point, you would be less comfortable with the staring too, because of the potential implication that it could go further than you want if not nipped in the bud.

   • Embed this notice
     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Mar-2024 11:37:51 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • John BS

     @johnabs Right, and i did point that out, that much of the difference between men and womens reaction may very well be how men treat women vs how women treat men.

     I am not really trying to judge a womans response or comparing who responds better, men or women. I just want to understand the feelings and emotional responses a woman would have internally to such a reaction.

   • Embed this notice
     IMPROVE PEOPLE _NOT JUST TECH_ (freeschool@qoto.org)'s status on Tuesday, 05-Mar-2024 18:46:49 JST IMPROVE PEOPLE _NOT JUST TECH_

     in reply to

     @freemo From the looker's perspective - when you see a nice bunch of X (ripe strawberries let's say) they you naturally would look at them (in the shop passing by or or less animated things).

     So even though breasts have a person attached to them (If I could frame it that way) then neutrally one would at anything voluptuous or beautiful and appreciate it (not just sex but various levels of appreciation too)

     Generally hard not to look at beautiful things - as another way of saying my point put forward. And does need training not to be so quick or reduce 'appreciation time' if it's related to people who are obviously wearing such things for many reasons (not all advertising to others either which is where training / education is needed).
     ------------
     SIDE STORY
     ------------
     I once jumped on a girl I half knew who was in the sunshine bathing and we were having best chat, great personality before that etc. So attractive the attraction took hold of me like never had I had experiences before. I must have though this is the one in my mind or just the best combination of person ever - and before I knew it I was on top and kissed her gently (as she was bathing after talking from a bit of distance relaxing).

     She wasn't flustered but I caught myself in time to realise "what I had potentially done" and quickly/calmly asked if she would mind if I kissed her again,

     She said "maybe" or similar and I dismounted after the realisation I should take it slow. Pretty proud of handling that after really not knowing where I was myself almost (like electric contact or something in the brain) and though it being explainable the moment took me a way so to speak.

     So back to main topic I don't blame people for looking especially a bit, especially from all the great biological / psychological signals etc that were probably hitting my brain overwhelmingly telling me many things were perfect and right but still was mature enough to catch the consent part even though I wasn't going to ravage anyone either... Interesting story no? Or maybe out of context even for side story.

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     🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 04:17:35 JST 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • casey is remote

     @realcaseyrollins
     That man has a knack for brevity :)

     @icedquinn

   • Embed this notice
     casey is remote (realcaseyrollins@noauthority.social)'s status on Wednesday, 06-Mar-2024 04:17:36 JST casey is remote

     in reply to

     • iced depresso

     @freemo It's short for the redpill, I didn't know it was an acronym until I saw @icedquinn use it.