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Jack of all trades (jackofalltrades@mas.to)'s status on Friday, 09-Feb-2024 19:50:40 JST Jack of all trades

https://invidious.fdn.fr/watch?v=lrMWSkzrMYg
Great interview. I especially liked the part where he connected energy-blindness of mainstream economics with its ideological role in maintaining contemporary power structures.
#SteveKeen #economics #capitalism #energy #ideology
In conversation about a year ago from mas.to permalink
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1. Keen: They all get the idea of labor and capital producing output and the production function if they go that detailed in first year. But fundamentally, they get taught the whole idea that we get paid our factor products. And that actually ideologically is very reinforcing for a CEO, because it says, "My enormous weight per salary, is because of my huge contribution to production." So it ends up having an ideological role, and that blinds them to the physical reality that you simply don't have that impact on production. If you come down to the nuts and bolts of it, it's energy which is producing the output and you are getting a share of it, an overblown share given your system and the power structure of capitalism. Hagens: So if we truly defined energy correctly in the production function, that giant gift from nature might not all be funneled to the top the way it is now. Keen: And that, of course, leads to one of the reasons why people continue being energy blind because it enables them to be blind to their outsized share of the wealth of the civilization that goes their way.
  https://media.mas.to/masto-public/media_attachments/files/111/894/989/180/621/745/original/b15ee2027d9d8b8c.jpg
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  Steve Keen: "On the Origins of Energy Blindness" | The Great Simplification #108
  
  (Conversation recorded on December 14th, 2023) Show Summary: On this episode, economist Steve Keen offers a deep forensic history of why modern economic theory has neglected the role of energy in productivity - and why this “Energy Blindness” is now a major blindspot in how our culture views the present - and the future. The massive, temporary carbon surplus we’ve extracted over the last few centuries has resulted in an exponential increase in the standard of living for many. This explosion of global economic growth also happened to coincide with the development of all modern economic theories and formulas, leading to a core misunderstanding in the way our economies are powered. How have technology and innovation been used to cover up the role of a growing energy supply in the last century of rising prosperity? In the midst of discussions between value and labor, where does energy really fit into the equation? Where do we go once we understand the true role of energy in our economy - and will we have the ability to reshape economic policies to be in line with our energy realities? About Steve Keen: Steve Keen is an economist, author of Debunking Economics and The New Economics: A Manifesto. His new book, Rebuilding Economics from the Top Down, will be released in 2024. He is a Research Fellow at the Institute for Strategy, Resilience, and Security at University College in London. Steve was one of the handful of economists to realize that a serious economic crisis was imminent, and to publicly warn of it from as early as December 2005. This, and his pioneering work on modeling debt-deflation, resulted in him winning the Revere Award from the Real World Economics Review. Listen to Steve Keen's previous episode here: https://youtu.be/_Q23wwyksdY Watch Steve Keen on Reality Roundtable #3 here: https://youtu.be/EC11UQD9q3w For Show Notes and More: https://www.thegreatsimplification.com/episode/108-steve-keen 0:00 - Intro 3:52 - The Physiocrats 9:33 - Adam Smith 15:09 - Karl Marx 19:09 - Proto-Neoclassical Economists 22:53 - The Neoclassical Takeover 27:50 - The Introduction of Math 36:46 - New Classical Economists 38:43 - Robert Solow 50:50 - Ayres, Kummel, and Energy 56:28 - The Neoclassical Defense 1:02:53 - The Truth About Energy 1:06:21 - A Message to Young Economists 1:14:07 - A Message to All Grad Students 1:16:44 - The Flame and The Machine 1:22:29 - Big Picture Implications 1:29:49 - Steve’s New Book 1:30:25 - Closing Thoughts #thegreatsimplification #natehagens #oil #carbon
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  phiofx (phiofx@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 09-Feb-2024 19:50:38 JST phiofx
  in reply to
  - RD
  - Kyle Montanio
  @jackofalltrades @FantasticalEconomics @RD4Anarchy
  Ayres, Keen etc are cited in the the current IPCC reports and that is what matters, not settling academic or political scores. Bullard Herendeen developed energy input-output models as far back as 1974 and Leontief himself had such ideas. These ideas are now heavily in practical use.
  There is never going to be some declaration of "mainstream defeat" or a Nobel prize recall. And power structures wont collapse due to improved models
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
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  Jack of all trades (jackofalltrades@mas.to)'s status on Friday, 09-Feb-2024 19:50:39 JST Jack of all trades
  in reply to
  - RD
  - Kyle Montanio
  @FantasticalEconomics @RD4Anarchy
  Check this out. ☝️ This neatly connects the ideological basis of mainstream economics with its energy blindness.
  Energy being a core input to capital and labor in the production function, rather than being treated as just a minor factor of production, is such a fundamental departure from mainstream ideology that I don't see it ever taking that leap.
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
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  phiofx (phiofx@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 09-Feb-2024 23:53:40 JST phiofx
  in reply to
  - Kyle Montanio
  @FantasticalEconomics @jackofalltrades
  one of my favorite quotes is: "there are no paths, paths are made by walking". Another one: "you never change things by fighting the existing reality. Build a new model that makes the existing one obsolete"
  That "walking/building" step is the acid test that separates theoretical visions of varying quality and coherence from the stuff that actually changes the world.
  It took one (1) person to build #mastodon. Imagine if we could get better at this.
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    Home
    
    from francesco
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  Kyle Montanio (fantasticaleconomics@geekdom.social)'s status on Friday, 09-Feb-2024 23:53:42 JST Kyle Montanio
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  - phiofx
  @jackofalltrades @phiofx
  Power structures won't collapse *solely* because of new models, but I definitely see them as a way to help change the system by providing a new path to follow.
  To highlight this, I'd point to the move to abolish the police. I think that was held back by not having a good alternative model to the broken system we have. I think that stalled that movement in many ways.
  New models give us a direction to make progress towards and point out issues of the current system.
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
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  Jack of all trades (jackofalltrades@mas.to)'s status on Friday, 09-Feb-2024 23:53:43 JST Jack of all trades
  in reply to
  - RD
  - Kyle Montanio
  - phiofx
  @phiofx @FantasticalEconomics @RD4Anarchy
  As to "power structures wont collapse due to improved models" we are in total agreement.
  However, there is something to be said about the so-called "scientists" that use their models to legitimize these power structures. They are complicit in the public's blindness to the reality of the situation.
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
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  Jack of all trades (jackofalltrades@mas.to)'s status on Friday, 09-Feb-2024 23:53:43 JST Jack of all trades
  in reply to
  - RD
  - Kyle Montanio
  - phiofx
  @phiofx @FantasticalEconomics @RD4Anarchy
  There really isn't a better example than #ClimateChange. Climate scientists have been raising the alarm for decades, while economists have been using their models to "prove" nothing fundamentally needs to change about the way we run the economy, and actually 3C of warming is "optimal".
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
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  phiofx (phiofx@hachyderm.io)'s status on Saturday, 10-Feb-2024 02:27:32 JST phiofx
  in reply to
  - Kyle Montanio
  @FantasticalEconomics @jackofalltrades Roger Pensore has in some of his books (I forget which one, maybe the road to reality) a classification of theories: superb, useful, tentative. Superb are those that are phenomenally and profoundly accurate (very few) etc.
  The related joke is that some theories "are not even wrong". Much of economics falls in that category. NB: not dissing economists for failing (its an incredibly complex field) but for not humbly disclosing when that is the case.
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
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  Kyle Montanio (fantasticaleconomics@geekdom.social)'s status on Saturday, 10-Feb-2024 02:27:33 JST Kyle Montanio
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  - phiofx
  @jackofalltrades @phiofx
  Agreed! The whole notion of "objective scientist" is problematic, especially in socal sciences.
  But even in the hard sciences, the researcher comes up with questions and decides on study design and brings their world views with them to interpret results. While we can strive for objectivity, we need to know it's impossible to acheive.
  Then remove the nice controlled environments and apply theories to complex people and societies... Objectivety becomes a pipedream.
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
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  Jack of all trades (jackofalltrades@mas.to)'s status on Saturday, 10-Feb-2024 02:27:34 JST Jack of all trades
  in reply to
  - Kyle Montanio
  - phiofx
  @FantasticalEconomics @phiofx
  Yes, exactly!
  Just like old models legitimize the status quo, new models can shake it up.
  I think Marx said it best:
  "The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
  Mainstream economists not viewing themselves as philosophers, but rather "objective scientists" is part of the problem.
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
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  phiofx (phiofx@hachyderm.io)'s status on Monday, 12-Feb-2024 06:45:48 JST phiofx
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  - Kyle Montanio
  @jackofalltrades @FantasticalEconomics its entirely conceivable (but the odds are unknowable) that in a not too distant future the role of energy in underpinning human economies will mutate yet again, and dramatically. We are, after all, drenched in low entropy solar radiation that is "free".
  So even as the project of explaining the economics the fossil fuel era has barely started it feels it will have an expiry date. The future "value multiplier" might be whatever constrains digital systems
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
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  Jack of all trades (jackofalltrades@mas.to)'s status on Monday, 12-Feb-2024 06:45:50 JST Jack of all trades
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  - Kyle Montanio
  @FantasticalEconomics
  The problem with "GDP is just transformed energy", that the interview highlighted beautifully, is that this kind of framing is not only too humbling to humans, but also upends the existing power structures.
  If the model was followed to its natural conclusion we'd all have to admit that 95% of our wealth does not come from our ingenuity or hard work, but from nature's endowment. Likewise, no one person could claim they *deserve* to be at the top of the hierarchy.
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
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  Kyle Montanio (fantasticaleconomics@geekdom.social)'s status on Monday, 12-Feb-2024 06:45:51 JST Kyle Montanio
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  @jackofalltrades
  Really a great interview with Keen! Some of the parts that resonated with me:
  'Most economists don't know the history of economics, so they don't have a sense of the context and how assumptions build on each other.'
  - Yeah, that checks out. I've never taken a history of econ course to get my phd and I learned quite a bit from a brief history.
  'GDP is just transformed energy.'
  - that is a nice, simple, and accurate model that really could be the core we build on in econ.
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
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  Jack of all trades (jackofalltrades@mas.to)'s status on Monday, 12-Feb-2024 06:45:52 JST Jack of all trades
  in reply to
  - Kyle Montanio
  @FantasticalEconomics
  Yes, it works for me, but if it doesn't work for you, try a YT link instead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrMWSkzrMYg
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
  Attachments
  1. Steve Keen: "On the Origins of Energy Blindness" | The Great Simplification #108
    
    from Nate Hagens
    
    (Conversation recorded on December 14th, 2023) Show Summary: On this episode, economist Steve Keen offers a deep forensic history of why modern economic the...
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  Kyle Montanio (fantasticaleconomics@geekdom.social)'s status on Monday, 12-Feb-2024 06:45:54 JST Kyle Montanio
  in reply to
  
  @jackofalltrades
  Is the link you shared still working? I can't seem to open it, but it may be an issue on my end..
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
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  phiofx (phiofx@hachyderm.io)'s status on Monday, 12-Feb-2024 17:30:18 JST phiofx
  in reply to
  - Kyle Montanio
  @FantasticalEconomics @jackofalltrades an extra challenge is that the current system is far from what it pretends to be. Milton Friedman defended the obsessive pursuit of monetary profit by saying that if you dont want private interests to pursue an X with negative externalities, you should just outlaw X. This ignores the reality of deep and pervasive political corruption, where acquired economic power shapes the conditions for its own further concentration and political influence.
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
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  Kyle Montanio (fantasticaleconomics@geekdom.social)'s status on Monday, 12-Feb-2024 17:30:20 JST Kyle Montanio
  in reply to
  - phiofx
  @phiofx @jackofalltrades
  Yeah the austems are going to change as what is scarce changes.
  It will be really interesting to see if we can convince people (particularly the powerful) that it is not us that matter... This whole notion of individualism and the 'rich deserving their outcomes' is so obviously backward.
  I hope we can find a way to open people's eyes to the fact that capitalism just rewards those who can most ruthlessly extract from the system, rather than anything of merit.
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
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  Jack of all trades (jackofalltrades@mas.to)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 18:38:27 JST Jack of all trades
  in reply to
  
  Also, mainstream economics will be quite useless in the upcoming collapse. As they say, you can't eat money, and neither you can fuel the machinery with it.
  As Steve Keen puts it: "Labor without energy is a corpse. Capital without energy is a sculpture."
  With the era of abundance ending it no longer will be easy to substitute or import what we lack. A new economic paradigm will be necessary.
  #economics #collapse #scarcity
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
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  Jack of all trades (jackofalltrades@mas.to)'s status on Saturday, 24-Feb-2024 18:38:28 JST Jack of all trades
  in reply to
  
  This line of thinking is not limited to CEOs, mind you. This concerns us all.
  The concept of "energy slaves" is very helpful in understanding this: https://mas.to/@jackofalltrades/110425979680740513
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
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    Jack of all trades (@jackofalltrades@mas.to)
    
    from Jack of all trades
    
    Attached: 1 image A comic about "energy slaves" of fossil fuels. https://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/energy-slaves/ #energy #fossilFuels #oil #climateChange
  Tokyo Outsider (337ppm) repeated this.

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