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1. Embed this notice
   Piglet (piglet@mastodon.scot)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 00:02:11 JST Piglet

   That Labour 2024 manifesto in full: The tory 2024 manifesto but using a differnt font. probably comic sans.

   • Embed this notice
     Mrs Cloudy (cloudymrs@mastodon.scot)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 00:02:05 JST Mrs Cloudy

     in reply to

     • Drivingforce

     @Drivingforce @piglet Alternatively, perhaps you could point out the difference? That might be quicker.

   • Embed this notice
     Drivingforce (drivingforce@cupoftea.social)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 00:02:10 JST Drivingforce

     in reply to

     @piglet SNP supporter I assume? Copying there line without critical thinking and doing any research of your own. Just believing the right wing press...
     Show me a policey on Labout home that is the same as the tories...

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     Mrs Cloudy (cloudymrs@mastodon.scot)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 00:17:31 JST Mrs Cloudy

     in reply to

     • Drivingforce

     @Drivingforce @piglet What's the timeline for delivery?

   • Embed this notice
     Drivingforce (drivingforce@cupoftea.social)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 00:17:33 JST Drivingforce

     in reply to

     • Mrs Cloudy

     @CloudyMrs @piglet
     https://labour.org.uk/missions/clean-energy/
     Now find the tory equiverlant 😘

   • Embed this notice
     Mrs Cloudy (cloudymrs@mastodon.scot)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 00:22:21 JST Mrs Cloudy

     in reply to

     • Drivingforce

     @Drivingforce @piglet will Labour change pricing policy away from the link to Gas? Will they support onshore wind development in England? Will they continue to subsidise oil and Gas? Lots of questions to be answered beyond the soundbites.

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     Mrs Cloudy (cloudymrs@mastodon.scot)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 00:40:05 JST Mrs Cloudy

     in reply to

     • Drivingforce

     @Drivingforce @piglet What does the SNP have to do with anything? Both Tories and Labour share the policy of default disregard for all electoral decisions made by Scots. Surely that makes the SNP irrelevant? Oh, and it's 'equivalent'. You're welcome.

   • Embed this notice
     Drivingforce (drivingforce@cupoftea.social)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 00:40:07 JST Drivingforce

     in reply to

     • Mrs Cloudy

     @CloudyMrs @piglet Tell me when the GE is and they are in power, the GB power company will be set up within a year of them getting into power. Please dont deflect, answer my question, where is the tory equiverlant? As this thread was to challange the concept that LAbour is Tory light, not to get bogged down by the details which I will happily debatg with you once Labout is in Power.
     The obly job for Starmers labour is to get into pwer and the torys out. I know that will make the SNP job more difficult as they would have to deal with a compitant UK goverment.

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     Mrs Cloudy (cloudymrs@mastodon.scot)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 00:40:32 JST Mrs Cloudy

     in reply to

     • Drivingforce

     @Drivingforce @piglet that's convenient. 🤣

   • Embed this notice
     Drivingforce (drivingforce@cupoftea.social)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 00:40:33 JST Drivingforce

     in reply to

     • Mrs Cloudy

     @CloudyMrs @piglet

     Dont know they not in power and they have not released a Manifesto, or white paper with the details, though I hope they will.

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     Mrs Cloudy (cloudymrs@mastodon.scot)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 00:58:47 JST Mrs Cloudy

     in reply to

     • Drivingforce

     @Drivingforce @piglet, you can surely understand a level of scepticism? Starmer has ditched so many of his previously stated priorities in favour of those that mirror current Tory policy, that many people, including Labour supporters, are unconvinced about commitment to the remaining stated aspirations I'd put money on there being hee haw reductions in household energy costs that aren't linked to oil and gas fluctuations. There's no detail. Only soundbites.

   • Embed this notice
     Drivingforce (drivingforce@cupoftea.social)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 00:58:48 JST Drivingforce

     in reply to

     • Mrs Cloudy

     @CloudyMrs @piglet what is, that you can't answer my challenge to the accusation that Labour are just the Tories? We can come back to this if you wish once Labour have released a manifesto, or white paper 👍

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     Mrs Cloudy (cloudymrs@mastodon.scot)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 01:17:16 JST Mrs Cloudy

     in reply to

     • Drivingforce

     @Drivingforce @piglet my God that's depressing.

   • Embed this notice
     Drivingforce (drivingforce@cupoftea.social)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 01:17:17 JST Drivingforce

     in reply to

     • Mrs Cloudy

     @CloudyMrs @piglet Yes I understand that, but he only job Starmer Labour has is to win the next election, against a hostile press, the only policies I will judge him on are the ones in the manifesto and if he keeps to them when he gains power. Until then I will accept what he says in public is what he believes needs to be said to win the next GE, (appears to be working) even then I will vote tactically, which in my area will be libdems... Thanks to our voting system

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     Mrs Cloudy (cloudymrs@mastodon.scot)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 02:10:18 JST Mrs Cloudy

     in reply to

     • Drivingforce

     @Drivingforce @piglet the fact that Scotland is stuck with a system where Tories will ALWAYS destroy whatever is achieved is the reason I will ALWAYS support #ScottishIndependence.
     That isn't the same as being an SNP supporter. A fair % of SLab voters also support independence, as do some Lib Dems and even a few Tories. There are several independence supporting parties as well, so please keep that in mind.

   • Embed this notice
     Drivingforce (drivingforce@cupoftea.social)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 02:10:19 JST Drivingforce

     in reply to

     • Mrs Cloudy

     @CloudyMrs @piglet
     Is a bit, but I take comfort in what Labour achieved last time they where in power and the Tories destroyed, this graph shows what i mean
     https://youtu.be/TBNXZvQ3Ox4?si=81lDantolZdBjY8l&t=392

     Mrs Cloudy repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     Mrs Cloudy (cloudymrs@mastodon.scot)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:06:51 JST Mrs Cloudy

     in reply to

     • Drivingforce

     @Drivingforce @piglet Wow! Just wow! That is quite some mad take. Let me guess, you read the Guardian. 🤣🤣

   • Embed this notice
     Drivingforce (drivingforce@cupoftea.social)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:06:52 JST Drivingforce

     in reply to

     • Mrs Cloudy

     @CloudyMrs @piglet Yes I understand why people want independence, but I believe the chance for it has gone, for now any way, as Labour have put forward plans to decentralise the UK goverment like they did last time they where in power. And not just the countries in the UK, but also regional areas in England, IF they do as they say it will make the case for independence less powerful, its the reason why the SNP are attacking Labour instead of the Tories now and trying to convince the Scottish people that Labour are Tory light. If Sturgeon was still in FM I think it would work a lot better than it is for Yousaf. The biggest problem for SNP if they loose seats in Westminster/Holyrood to Labour it makes the case harder for a referendum, though I suspect if they asked a Labour Gov. for a referendum they would get it. At the moment, it may change, Starmer is pretty much hands of with Scotland specific policy https://youtu.be/Fc6X8pbwX50?si=W93N2USnJagF6_BE

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     Mrs Cloudy (cloudymrs@mastodon.scot)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:12:29 JST Mrs Cloudy

     in reply to

     • Drivingforce

     @Drivingforce @piglet Impressive, without reading or listening to the Guardian podcast, you've managed to quote them line by line. Chance of independence is past? Why? What do you think changed? SNP is attacking Labour rather than the Tories. Are they? How?
     Impressive stuff.

   • Embed this notice
     Drivingforce (drivingforce@cupoftea.social)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:12:30 JST Drivingforce

     in reply to

     • Mrs Cloudy

     @CloudyMrs @piglet wrong mate I don't read MSM papers. I read byline times, or look at English papers in other countries for their take.
     Don't trust UK media to partisan

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     Mrs Cloudy (cloudymrs@mastodon.scot)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:14:05 JST Mrs Cloudy

     in reply to

     • Drivingforce

     @Drivingforce @piglet my absolute favourite. If SNP asked Labour for a referendum, they'd be allowed. Seriously, chum, that's wrong on so many levels.

   • Embed this notice
     Mrs Cloudy (cloudymrs@mastodon.scot)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:28:05 JST Mrs Cloudy

     in reply to

     • Drivingforce

     @Drivingforce @piglet Labour are the ones telling that particular story. school meals, tuition fees, prescription charges, Trident replacement, Brexit, Immigration, Benefits, NHS, Train/water nationalisation, uncritical support of Israel, a Scottish independence referendum and the absolute cherry on the cake. Admiration of Margaret Thatcher. Stop looking at the SNP and start looking at Starmer's Labour. It isn't pretty.

   • Embed this notice
     Drivingforce (drivingforce@cupoftea.social)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:28:06 JST Drivingforce

     in reply to

     • Mrs Cloudy

     @CloudyMrs @piglet
     So SNP have not started the line that Labour are just Tory Lite?

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     Mrs Cloudy (cloudymrs@mastodon.scot)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:39:30 JST Mrs Cloudy

     in reply to

     • Drivingforce

     @Drivingforce @piglet "Labour passed the Scotland Act" under pressure from the EU which was about to force their hand. "Which transferred more powers to Holyrood" none permanently binding as we now see. "Legally Scotland cannot just call for a binding referendum" But it can vote repeatedly for parties that support independence and be totally ignored. "Labour was on the side of the union last Referendum but they have not been hostile for another bite at the cherry." Aye?
     https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-independence-labour-leader-sir-keir-starmer-pledges-change-but-maintains-firm-indyref2-stance-3940181

   • Embed this notice
     Drivingforce (drivingforce@cupoftea.social)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 04:39:31 JST Drivingforce

     in reply to

     • Mrs Cloudy

     @CloudyMrs @piglet
     Why is it? Labour passed the Scotland Act which transferred more powers to Holyrood, legally Scotland cannot just call for a binding referendum. Labour was on the side of the union last Referendum but they have not been hostile for another bite at the cherry. Why would they be, it would be a vote loser for them in Scotland?

   • Embed this notice
     Vambomarbleye (jhughes1@mastodon.scot)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 09:11:56 JST Vambomarbleye

     in reply to

     • Mrs Cloudy
     • Drivingforce

     @Drivingforce @CloudyMrs @piglet Starmer is no Blair.
     Here’s the big issue showing all the u-turns and pledges not to change existing Tory policy. So, not the right wing media.
     Accept it. Tory-lite to get elected in the Home Counties. Nothing in this for Scots. Nothing.

   • Embed this notice
     Mrs Cloudy (cloudymrs@mastodon.scot)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 17:45:36 JST Mrs Cloudy

     in reply to

     • Oli
     • Drivingforce

     @OliverNoble @Drivingforce @piglet waaay more than "somewhat". His repeated statements about Scotland are "arrogant" and entirely misguided. Who does he think he is to be the one to decide what OUR priorities are and what is best for US. He's a total arse of a man.

   • Embed this notice
     Oli (olivernoble@mastodon.world)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 17:45:37 JST Oli

     in reply to

     • Mrs Cloudy
     • Drivingforce

     @CloudyMrs @Drivingforce @piglet I am not #Scottish but the often repeated mantra from #starmerites that the opportunity for an independent #Scotland has gone seems bizarre and somewhat arrogant - i know thats not exactly what the OP claimed but #labour's anti-independence rhetoric looks a bit desperate

     I know #Starmer is very opposed and may try to frustrate the process but even as an #English observer, the case for independence looks stronger every year and support seems solid and increasing

   • Embed this notice
     Drivingforce (drivingforce@cupoftea.social)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 18:20:30 JST Drivingforce

     in reply to

     • Oli
     • Mrs Cloudy

     @CloudyMrs @OliverNoble @piglet
     So having a belief and opinion is now arrogant? has he said, that he would never give Scotland another referendum, that is arrogant. If you have a direct quote that has not been put through the filter of a newspaper saying he knows best then I will accept your premise.

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     Mrs Cloudy (cloudymrs@mastodon.scot)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 18:20:30 JST Mrs Cloudy

     in reply to

     • Oli
     • Drivingforce

     @Drivingforce @OliverNoble @piglet oh look it up for yourself. He gave several interviews around the time of the high court judgement where he was asked "If the UK is a voluntary union, what is the mechanism for Scotland to leave". His answer, in his own words, was recorded and broadcast. Basically, yes, it's a voluntary union. No, Scotland can't decide to leave. Yes, Scots voted for parties that promote a referendum. No, he won't allow one because it isn't a priority, and it would be bad for us

   • Embed this notice
     Mrs Cloudy (cloudymrs@mastodon.scot)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 18:23:04 JST Mrs Cloudy

     in reply to

     • Oli
     • Drivingforce

     @Drivingforce @OliverNoble @piglet https://youtu.be/BA_E4fKd_4Q?si=7aQgOC_UcLIzOC6y

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     Mrs Cloudy (cloudymrs@mastodon.scot)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 19:49:35 JST Mrs Cloudy

     in reply to

     • Oli
     • Drivingforce

     @Drivingforce @OliverNoble @piglet What is the democratic route to independence?

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     Drivingforce (drivingforce@cupoftea.social)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 19:49:37 JST Drivingforce

     in reply to

     • Oli
     • Mrs Cloudy

     @CloudyMrs @OliverNoble @piglet
     He said democracy should dictate, I know Independence supporters are passionate but I didn't realise they want to break the law to achieve it and not leave it in the hands of democracy. 😭

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     Mrs Cloudy (cloudymrs@mastodon.scot)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 19:57:26 JST Mrs Cloudy

     in reply to

     • Oli
     • Drivingforce

     @Drivingforce @OliverNoble @piglet Thank goodness you're here to explain it to me. #gaslighting #Engsplaining #NotImpressed 🙄

   • Embed this notice
     Drivingforce (drivingforce@cupoftea.social)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 19:57:27 JST Drivingforce

     in reply to

     • Oli
     • Mrs Cloudy

     @CloudyMrs @OliverNoble @piglet
     Ok so i listened to that he did not answer the question unless I'm missed it which is a politicians way of not putting himself into the corner and removing the Tories claim that he will go in to coalition with the SNP to keep the Tories out and allow a referendum. If I missed it give me the minute and second where he said that he would not give Scotland a referendum. SNP has only 6 million people to talk to and the fascination of another referendum, literally turning them into a single issue party

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     Mrs Cloudy (cloudymrs@mastodon.scot)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 20:28:41 JST Mrs Cloudy

     in reply to

     • Oli
     • Drivingforce

     @Drivingforce @OliverNoble @piglet You don't seem to have any problem with the idea that democracy for Scotland is entirely in the gift of Westminster parties that we didn't vote for. They both speak about us with exactly the same dismissive tone. "Now is not the time " irrespective of how we vote because our democracy is irrelevant to their own aspirations. Democracy isn't waiting for some undefined point in the future when they decide we can have what we vote for.

   • Embed this notice
     Drivingforce (drivingforce@cupoftea.social)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 20:28:43 JST Drivingforce

     in reply to

     • Oli
     • Mrs Cloudy

     @CloudyMrs @OliverNoble @piglet The last referendum is one example, the Tories blocked your last attempted which was the wrong thing to do as both the Greens and SNP had the majority of votes in Holyrood supported the referendum and where voted in with that in their manifesto. You are assuming that if the numbers are the same Labour if in power would reject the request.

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     Mrs Cloudy (cloudymrs@mastodon.scot)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 20:34:17 JST Mrs Cloudy

     in reply to

     • Oli
     • Drivingforce

     @Drivingforce @OliverNoble @piglet what is the democratic route to a "legal referendum"? Who gets to make that decision? And its border, not "boarder". Bored now. Bye.

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     Drivingforce (drivingforce@cupoftea.social)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 20:34:18 JST Drivingforce

     in reply to

     • Oli
     • Mrs Cloudy

     @CloudyMrs @OliverNoble @piglet Making assumptions about people now. How do you know my country of birth? and how i identify, I have different opinion I listened to the interview and at no point he said he would refuse another referendum, he was very political in his answer keeping politics south of the boarder in mind when he answered as he needs that support. Something you did not make clear you understood. Apologies but I was certainly not lying to you ( #gaslighting) and I don't know what Engslpaining is though i can guess

     If there is a legal referendum and Scotland decide to leave then good, I only wish I could move north of the boarder as SNP in general is running things better than the Tories within the confines of the powers they have. Low bar but that is why I want Labour in power so things will improve, again a low bar to start from. Best of luck I hope you get what you want :ablobwave: