Erin Kissane
Do the people stating that Meta can’t possibly “monetize” posts originating from other fedi services not believe that Threads users are going to experience, for example, Mastodon posts as *part of their Threads timeline*…which is algorithmically populated and will get monetized as soon as Meta flips ads on?
Is there any documented reason not to believe that this is not the most likely outcome?
tech? no! man, see...
@kissane @darius @martincrownover I'm like ... 80% sure this has already happened? and the instance landed on All The Blocklists, exactly as you would expect
Erin Kissane
@darius @martincrownover I was going to say “the wrath of 100,000 catgirls,” myself, but
Darius Kazemi
@martincrownover @kissane Nothing at all except the effort to implement it!
Marty
@kissane Not that I condone Meta, but what stops any Mastodon instance from doing the same thing?
John Socks
@kissane I think there is going to be a profit and loss column for each off-Threads interaction. Sure, it might enrich the Threads experience, but also every time it is a reminder of the alternative. That, for instance, someone might be enjoying a similar thing without ads.
Paul Cantrell
@kissane Agreed, this is clearly one of the places it’s heading. Closely analogous to Facebook, Google, etc embedding more and more of the content of sites in pages they control via previews, content-extracting widgets, AI summaries (or attempts at them), etc. Not always bad, but troubling especially in the hands of an appallingly amoral entity like Meta.
Paul Cantrell
@kissane The big question to my mind is how Meta keeps switching costs high. Federation means Threads users can see posts from other instances next to ads — but also •should• mean that Threads users can jump to an ad-free client. And when everything turns stupid and Threads pulls the fedi plug and/or gets the boot, folks •should• be able to jump instances to maintain their valued social connections.
Meta will fight tooth and nail to prevent all that. User capture is their lifeblood.
Evan Prodromou
@kissane @stoneymonster I think they say, at least, that they don't sell data on the back end. I guess that might be a question of how define "selling data".
https://www.facebook.com/privacy/dialog/does-meta-sell-my-info/
Erin Kissane
@stoneymonster It feels like people think Meta makes their money by…selling scraped profile data wholesale or something? Maybe from inside a trench coat down at the Burger King?
Chris White
@kissane yeah this should not be confusing. The Fediverse isn't GPLv3 or something. It's not virally de-monetizing Meta.
Evan Prodromou
@kissane so, is it more important that *nobody* makes money from what you post on the fediverse, or specifically that Meta doesn't?
Evan Prodromou
@kissane Also, I think what you said is the most likely outcome. Fediverse content in-stream, which keeps people engaged, with ads also in-stream. I think the best thing we can do here is to define structures of consent for our posts, like "not for algorithmic feeds" or "not in feeds with ads". Next best thing is blocking Threads.
Evan Prodromou
@fromjason @kissane @stoneymonster I think this is an important principled stand. And if you're willing to give up connections to people you might care about on those platforms, I think defederating from Threads gets you most of the way there. There are some leaky areas (people posting screenshots of your content, people replying to you) that depending on your level of concern might be hard to enforce.
fromjason.xyz ❤️ 💻
@kissane @evan @stoneymonster I think that's absolutely the way to approach it, which brings us back to your original point.
Meta isn't some Chad scraper looking for Adsense cash. It's an ad firm, a particularly ruthless and apathetic one at that.
I know Meta already has my data. I'm slowly moving here from there because I no longer want to make content for a company that physiologically manipulates its users. Find some other content to stick between ads.
fromjason.xyz ❤️ 💻
@evan @kissane @stoneymonster Meta is more inclined to give away our user data for "free". It's what they did for Cambridge Analytica, who in turn developed physiological profiles of users applying the OCEAN model.
Later, the Russians bought it, Brexit, etc. We know how the story goes.
The notion that Meta is in no better position to use Mastodon users data today than it was a few weeks ago, doesn't align with the company's history.
Erin Kissane
For me, it's useful to separate what Meta does with data on purpose—which is, roughly speaking, all about behavior-targeted advertising on the third-party side and casino-like tweaking to manipulate user behavior on the internal side—from what they have allowed to happen because they don't put enough resources on security to prevent it, which includes Cambridge Analytica and the widespread fake-account and fake-page influence ops globally.
1/2
Erin Kissane
And that's useful because I genuinely don't think Meta is *trying* to get continuously pwned the way they do—they just don't care to stop it except in a few markets, according to whistleblower testimony.
So I think behavioral data collected *to sell targeted ads* is what they're after—and eg Masto user data isn't v interesting, financially because we can't be sold as inventory. *But* our federated posts can help them target their own users more finely.
2/2
Evan Prodromou
@GuyDudeman @kissane cool, I'll put you down for a strong no.
G.I. Robot :bc:
Not to butt-in or anything, but I don't think anyone should make money on the fediverse.
Erin Kissane
@evan I’m not saying either of those things.
I’m asking what the model is behind the idea that Meta can’t ~monetize posts from the non-Threads parts of fedi, because either a.) I don’t understand the argument or b.) people making that claim mean different things by “monetize” than I do or c.) they haven’t thought it through.
A lot of people are responding like I’m trying to do some kind of judo and they need to address my real, hidden point, but it’s a genuine question.
Evan Prodromou
@kissane oh, fair! Yes, someone who says that Meta can't monetize your content, at least indirectly, would be incorrect, I think. Meta will benefit financially when people on Threads subscribe to people on the rest of the fediverse.
Evan Prodromou
@kissane If someone told me that Meta was going to monetize my content on the fediverse, though, I'd think they meant that somehow ads were going to appear in my feed for everyone on the fediverse, which isn't possible. So, my guess is that people who say "Meta won't monetize your data" are thinking of it that way.
Evan Prodromou
@colo_lee @kissane I think that fine-grained permissions on people's content on the fediverse is probably helpful. I would not put that flag on my own content.
I think if you're trying to block anyone on Threads from reading your stuff, we have the tools for it right now. I don't think we have the tools yet to say, "I won't allow the following re-use: ...". I think it's possible to get it started, though.
Lee Fife
@evan @kissane "Not for algorithmic feeds" seems like it would block Mammoth. Ditto for bluesky were they to federate. Is that a consequence you'd accept for keeping Meta from showing posts?
(I would appreciate a client-side transparent algorithmic feed. Since I basically have to implement one by hand currently via lists and judicious hashtags.)
I suspect what people actually want is to block Threads.
Evan Prodromou
@fromjason @kissane @stoneymonster Don't bet against the fediverse, Jason.
fromjason.xyz ❤️ 💻
@evan @kissane @stoneymonster My concerns aren't necessarily related to my motivations for coming here.
I came here because I was concerned with myself, and that process has been non-linear as I still have meaningful personal relationships on other apps.
My expressed concerns with interpolation relate to indications that Meta's intentions are harmful. I express those concerns because I fear ActivityPub or Mastodon cannot withstand it.
Erin Kissane
@evan Is it your sense that the "My post got boosted by someone whose server federates with Known Troll Server despite my own server having long ago suspended Known Troll Server and now Known Trolls are in my replies but I can't see them" problem won't be an issue with Threads, specifically?
I have personal experience with that particular missing stair, and the discussions about which circumstances do and don't allow it are kind of hilariously baroque, so far, though I've tried to follow them.
Evan Prodromou
@kissane you're throwing a lot at me.
You did a personal (not server) block on another server, and when someone else boosted your toot, it went to that other server? That's a problem. I'm going to log that as an ActivityPub bug.
Evan Prodromou
@kissane https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/405 I think there are some ways we can deal with this.
Evan Prodromou
@kissane second, you've got people you blocked personally in your replies, but you can't see them. I agree, that sucks. I think blocked actors shouldn't appear in your replies.
Mike McCue
@evan @kissane chiming in to say I strongly agree with this and it'd be great to fix this issue sooner than later. How should we proceed?
Evan Prodromou
@kissane no, I get it. I think the correct thing to do is for the blocked server to check if it's blocked, and then not distribute the post. Replies from a blocked server are a problem, though.
Erin Kissane
@evan I’m not trying to! It’s a problem that’s been discussed a lot in various places this year, so I figured you’d encountered it and maybe had opinions lined up already w/r/t its relevance to Threads federation.
(In my case, it wasn’t a personal block—my home server had previously suspended Troll Server, but Troll Server got hold of my posts anyway, via boosting through other servers that didn’t block them.)
Erin Kissane
@evan (I’m afk but will pull up some conversations with more details on this when back at a desk tonight)
Evan Prodromou
Daniele Tricoli
Evan Prodromou
@kissane @osma one nice thing about the fediverse is that we can have different levels of affordance and control. If you don't want to set up contact lists, fine. If you do, there are tools for you. Your choice.
Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦
@evan
Have you actually ever seen fine grained control employed at scale? Because there have been numerous implementations, in the social media domain including Google+ Circles and Facebook's grouped friendlist & visibility settings (not to be confused with Facebook Groups).
It's my experience that even those who loudly complain about these things don't bother using fine grained control when made available.
@colo_lee @kissane
Erin Kissane
@osma @evan Before FAANG-scale social media, Flickr (rights and visibility controls) and LiveJournal (visibility/privacy controls) had excellent uptake on fine controls—probably because the seed communities cared about usage rights and privacy to begin with, and secondarily because the controls were pretty well designed.
(Present-day fedi seems culturally closer to those older services than to FB or Google+.)
Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦
There's a FEP for a policy setting to say who should be able to reply to a post.
https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/fep-5624-per-object-reply-control-policies/2723
Associated Mastodon issue is at https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/8565
There's also one for letting the original poster retroactively remove a reply from their post's replies collection, but I misplaced the link.
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