Conversation

Notices

1. Embed this notice
   Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Sunday, 26-Nov-2023 20:10:00 JST Drew DeVault

   Alright everyone, show's over

   Direct further replies to hn@ycombinator.com

   • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Sunday, 26-Nov-2023 20:11:38 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to
     @drewdevault Heh, I wish I could be surprised…
   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 00:04:00 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • marius
     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     @mariusor @mfru the purpose behind this question is to determine if discourse on sexual abuse in particular is off-topic, even with a similar pairing of an on-topic component (the free software community)

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 00:04:01 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • marius
     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     @mariusor @mfru okay. Hacker News discusses many political topics, many of which have questionable relevance to the on-topic guidelines you cited. For instance, on the front page right now is a story about how an Apple device is being used to find drug traffickers. This has a political angle -- war on drugs -- and a tech angle -- Apple. Would you also agree that this is off-topic? Did you also flag this post?

   • Embed this notice
     marius (mariusor@metalhead.club)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 00:04:03 JST marius

     in reply to

     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     @drewdevault yes, HN is not the place to discuss the foibles of Stallman. (and an implication of "in my opinion")

     @mfru

   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 00:04:04 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • marius
     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     @mariusor @mfru so, based on your reasoning here, if I were to substitute "the community" with the more specific "Hacker News", your answer would be different? For instance, you don't agree with "our community should not have space to discuss problematic behavior", but you would agree with "Hacker News should not have space to discuss problematic behavior"?

   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 00:04:05 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • marius
     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     @mariusor @mfru the entire free software community already discussed Stallman's behavior. I actually did reach out to him a while ago to discuss his behavior, he offered to sit for a meeting and when I offered him some time slots he never responded.

     What I wrote was simply an analysis of direct quotations from Stallman. I included no testimony, no hearsay, and repeated none of the accusations of improper behavior. His opinions were written in public and I responded in kind.

   • Embed this notice
     marius (mariusor@metalhead.club)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 00:04:07 JST marius

     in reply to

     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     @drewdevault HN does not comprise all the spaces where "our" community can discuss things.

     My personal opinion is that this discussion you should have had with the people on the FSF mailing lists, and, more importantly with Stallman himself.

     Write to LWN, write to Heisse, write an open letter... I don't know.

     And in all honesty I suspect you are not being entirely genuine when you imply that HN is a space for discussions about open source community.

     @mfru

   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 00:04:08 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • marius
     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     @mariusor @mfru I am not baiting you. I am looking to deeper sources of philosophical disagreement so we can work backwards to build up a self-consistent worldview that justifies your opinion. It's much easier to settle our disagreement this way.

     So: given that you agree that space needs to be made for discussing behavior like Stallman's, why is my article on the subject inappropriate and/or how is denying it access to the discourse justified under this lens?

   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 00:04:08 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • marius
     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     @mariusor @mfru in other words, you state both that the our community should have space to discuss problematic behavior, and that my discussion of problematic behavior should not be allowed in this space. How do you resolve the contradiction? What calls for an exception in this case?

   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 00:04:10 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • marius
     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     @mariusor @mfru do you assert that the hacker community has, and should have, no space in which to discuss problematic speech and behavior of its members and leaders?

   • Embed this notice
     marius (mariusor@metalhead.club)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 00:04:10 JST marius

     in reply to

     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     @drewdevault not al all.

     And what you're doing right now, I believe is called "baiting". I believe I was polite and have made my comments in good faith to your good intentions, but I will stop interacting if you start behaving like this.

     @mfru

   • Embed this notice
     marius (mariusor@metalhead.club)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 00:04:12 JST marius

     in reply to

     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     @mfru I disagree with you. Just because the article is about a guy that is involved with open source, it does not mean that it's not off topic.

     @drewdevault

   • Embed this notice
     max frühschütz – нет войне (mfru@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 00:04:15 JST max frühschütz – нет войне

     in reply to

     • marius

     @mariusor @drewdevault

     opinions on HN are issued via up-/downvotes not flags. flags are for spam or off-topic. Neither applies.

     "Please don't complain that a submission is inappropriate. If a story is spam or off-topic, flag it."

     https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

   • Embed this notice
     marius (mariusor@metalhead.club)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 00:04:16 JST marius

     in reply to

     @drewdevault I don't view my flag as censorship. I view it as a way to manifest my opinion on your hit piece.

     And yes, people that act on their sexual attraction to minors are repugnant.

   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 00:04:17 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • marius

     @mariusor consider also sparing some words for how his views are repugnant, your take looks awful from the outside.

     Say that we agree to disagree. Is censorship the tool you still resort to, and preventing our disagreement from being held in public? Would you resort to censorship more or less when the matter in question relates to sexual violence? What does that say about your sensibilities?

   • Embed this notice
     marius (mariusor@metalhead.club)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 00:04:19 JST marius

     in reply to

     @drewdevault
     I'm all for attacking the issue head on and call out assholes when you see them, but making an old man on his last legs with cancer as the figurehead of open-source incels is a little repugnant.

   • Embed this notice
     marius (mariusor@metalhead.club)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 00:04:20 JST marius

     in reply to

     @drewdevault I not convinced of your thesis that Stallman's stance on minor's capability of making their own sexual decisions has actually influenced anyone. Maybe the crowds that hang out in the murks of the open-source world have similar backgrounds and social attitudes, but to blame that on the minuscule reach Stallman has, is a bit of a stretch.

   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 00:04:21 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • marius

     @mariusor nope. We need to talk about this issue. Stallman is not irrelevant: it remains a problem and continues to actively cause problems. It cannot be laid to rest until it's actually addressed.

     Did you read the article in full before flagging it?

   • Embed this notice
     marius (mariusor@metalhead.club)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 00:04:23 JST marius

     in reply to

     @drewdevault I was one that flagged this story. With all due respect to your personal crusade against irrelevant old men, it is not conducive to any kind of discussion that I'd want to see HN have.

     Please allow us some agency over the kind of negativity we want to see on our feeds, instead of implying some foul play.

   • Embed this notice
     linear cannon (linear@nya.social)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 01:39:19 JST linear cannon

     in reply to

     • marius
     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     @mariusor@metalhead.club @drewdevault@fosstodon.org @mfru@mastodon.social well, why the hell not? it's not like people have listened to the unprivileged non-white non-dudes when theyve said exactly the same thing for decades
     
     people like stallman being figureheads, and people like you deflecting discussions like this away from people like him, are a substantial part of why i am uncomfortable participating in communities around free software
     
     believe me when i say, drew's article is serving to amplify marginalized voices.
     
     you, a privileged white dude, are serving to suppress that discussion, and by extension, those voices. that is not the way to move the issue forward.

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     marius (mariusor@metalhead.club)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 01:39:21 JST marius

     in reply to

     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     @drewdevault I say you are wrong.

     Sexual abuse should be addressed in public. But it should be head on when it happens and not with vacous articles that call for the punishment of irrelevant people.

     Metoo was a cathartic event, and I hoped that it would conduce to a better discourse about handling these situations.

     I don't know if an article from a privileged white dude speaking against another privileged white dude is the best way to move the issue forward.

     @mfru

   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 01:39:22 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • marius
     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     @mariusor @mfru rather than collect all of the loose ends you've deflected during this conversation, I'm going to challenge you now to accept or refute the following premise: I believe that the ultimate reason that my blog post made you uncomfortable, and made you flag it on Hacker News, is that consciously or otherwise you do not believe that sexual abuse should be discussed in public.

   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 01:39:23 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • marius
     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     @mariusor @mfru well, I was in this discussion, and I can tell you that the normalization of these as acceptable political beliefs and the lack of consequences for expressing them as such *is* a part of the reason that this person acted in this manner.

   • Embed this notice
     marius (mariusor@metalhead.club)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 01:39:25 JST marius

     in reply to

     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     > I have heard Stallman's rhetoric used by a hacker I know to justify their sexual relationship with a minor, and wanted to seek out with other minors. This shit matters.

     @drewdevault I believe you when you say that. I don't believe that validation for his deviation from Stallman was what tipped that person into being a creep.

     @mfru

   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 01:39:26 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • marius
     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     @mariusor @mfru the real and life-altering consequences being the removal of Stallman from the board of directors at the Free Software Foundation?

     Or perhaps the real, life-altering consequences for victims of the kinds of abusive behavior Stallman argues that society should be tolerant of, or encourage?

     I have heard Stallman's rhetoric used by a hacker I know to justify their sexual relationship with a minor, and wanted to seek out with other minors. This shit matters.

   • Embed this notice
     marius (mariusor@metalhead.club)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 01:39:28 JST marius

     in reply to

     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     @drewdevault because you might just be wrong, and it's not actually the source.

     Disposing of Stallman will do very little for current victims of sexual abuse in the open source community and I personally am very skeptical of diminishing bad behaviour in the future.

     Real, life altering, punishments for what people think and say is something I can't agree with.

     @mfru

   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 01:39:29 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • marius
     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     @mariusor @mfru furthermore: you seem to suggest that I should be addressing the behaviors instilled by his speech in others. Why focus on that instead of going to the source?

   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 01:39:30 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • marius
     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     @mariusor @mfru two points: first, if I had framed it in these terms, you would not have flagged it?

     Second: I disagree. In terms of "blame", I think people should be accountable for their words precisely because of the effect they have on others, and moreover I think that drawing out his reasoning regarding consent and sexual assault and harassment clearly demonstrates that *he* personally presents a risk to others in the practical sense of his participation in the community.

   • Embed this notice
     marius (mariusor@metalhead.club)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 01:39:32 JST marius

     in reply to

     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     @drewdevault your post might not make any accusations, but the implications are heavy and your replies here make your stance crystal clear.

     Acknowledging Stallman is a septuagenarian that spent his life outside of regular society, probably due to his autistic tendencies, might make for a more balanced take, otherwise you're just stoking the fires of cancel culture.

     His words might be questionable, but the people that use them as a start point for hurting others are entirely to blame.

     @mfru

   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 01:39:33 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • marius
     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     @mariusor @mfru in other words, in order to discuss problematic speech (note again that my post does not make any accusations and does not rely on hear-say, it only analyzes direct quotes), we must only do so in the context of a two-sided discourse that acknowledges and excuses the circumstances from which that speech arises?

   • Embed this notice
     Drew DeVault (drewdevault@fosstodon.org)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 01:39:34 JST Drew DeVault

     in reply to

     • marius
     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     @mariusor @mfru are you suggesting that with a greater emphasis on the society that produced RMS, or the "illness that influences his discourse", that my views would have been more welcome on Hacker News?

   • Embed this notice
     marius (mariusor@metalhead.club)'s status on Monday, 27-Nov-2023 01:39:35 JST marius

     in reply to

     • max frühschütz – нет войне

     @drewdevault is that what you intended with your post? To get people to talk more about sexual abuse? Not to imply that Stallman condones it and even fosters it, without any consideration for the society that RMS is a product of, nor for the illness that influences his discourse?

     @mfru