@realcaseyrollins @Miriamm @freemo @kjetil_kilhavn I don't think they have much choice but to go after the terrorists at this point. I think it is incumbent on them to do this with minimal collateral damage, though – I'm ignorant about the best way to do that?
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Erik Haugen (ech@qoto.org)'s status on Sunday, 15-Oct-2023 23:52:25 JST 
Erik Haugen
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realcaseyrollins ✝️ (realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world)'s status on Sunday, 15-Oct-2023 23:52:27 JST 
realcaseyrollins ✝️
@kjetil_kilhavn @freemo @Miriamm I generally agree, but is attacking terrorists while they are hiding behind human shields an atrocity?
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Kjetil Kilhavn (kjetil_kilhavn@snabelen.no)'s status on Sunday, 15-Oct-2023 23:52:28 JST 
Kjetil Kilhavn
@freemo @Miriamm I think we can safely say that the following is true: Both sides commit atrocities.
Hamas killed soldiers, but they also deliberately targeted and murdered civilians.
Israel say they target terrorists, but the result is that many civilian Palestinians die too.
To a dead civilian I don't think that distinction matters much.
However, if the attack came as a surprise, can we really trust the Israeli armed forces when they say they know where the military targets are? -
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🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Sunday, 15-Oct-2023 23:52:29 JST 
🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
@Miriamm I assure you as someone who can personally confirm it, most of what we heard is more or less true. Yes there is bias, media spin, and as always not the whole truth... but more or less the jist of hamas murdering civilians is entierly valid.
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Miriam 🇮🇪 (miriamm@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 15-Oct-2023 23:52:30 JST 
Miriam 🇮🇪
This is a war of propaganda. Brush up on your media literacy skills. Trace sources. Make sure what you’re spreading isn’t false. If you can’t verify it don’t post it. Please.
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🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Oct-2023 07:58:04 JST
🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
Its not about sacraficing lives... its a bit more nuanced than that.
When they simply keep their installations underground and in civilian populations this, in and of itself, is perfectly normal and accepted gorilla warfare. Its also in many cases (not all) with the blessing of the civilians I suspect. Jews did this during WWII (hiding stashes of weapons in civilian locations) and generally operated covertly and hiding among civlians... all of this is fine.
Where it becomes an issue is when they are actively firing from a location and use children or ciuvilians as shields by not allowing them to leave the zone of fire. This is where it becomes very very wrong... and sadly this is also on par with what israel does where they have been caught using children from palestine as human shields also.
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realcaseyrollins ✝️ (realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Oct-2023 07:58:05 JST
realcaseyrollins ✝️
@freemo @Miriamm @ech @kjetil_kilhavn Agreed to a degree (not sure if they cannot literally build military installations or not, but yep #Israel would take it out if they tried).
It’s understandable, but not justifiable to sacrifice Palestinian lives for their political cause.
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🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Oct-2023 07:58:06 JST
🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
No not what I said, or at least not what I intended to say.
They generally integrate with the population for gurilla reasons.. when they "operate" out of a location with civilians its just wrong if they dont let the civilians evacuate (which has happened, israel has done the same).
The reason is, yes, because they cant build military installations. That isnt a reason to use civilians as shields, but it is a reaason to hold their operations in civilian meeting spaces.
As a reminder this aspect is quite common among gurilla warfare, for the "freedom fighters" to have meetings and gather in secret among civilians. Where it becomes wrong is if they launch attacks and use civilians as shields.
Now to the point of why they do this, yes, it goes back to what I said if they walk out to a field and try to build a military building then israel will just bomb it and kill them all off before they even have a chance. They certainly are under no obligation to commit suicide either.
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realcaseyrollins ✝️ (realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Oct-2023 07:58:08 JST
realcaseyrollins ✝️
@freemo @ech @Miriamm @kjetil_kilhavn What I am saying is in the overwhelming majority of cases they bomb civilian locations simply because hamas are present at all, even when they are not using it for military purposes
No, you said that #Hamas operates among civilians because there isn’t enough room for them to build military installations, which to my knowledge is just not true.
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🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Oct-2023 07:58:09 JST
🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
Wha? It is absolutely not the case that they have no choice but to have military installations in the same buildings as hospitals/schools/residences.
There is a huge difference between a military installation and hamas simply being present. As we covered with both sides using human shields I am not claiming there arent instances of them doing just that, using human shields, as Israel has on multiple occasions. What I am saying is in the overwhelming majority of cases they bomb civilian locations simply because hamas are present at all, even when they are not using it for military purposes.
> You seem to be under the impression that Gaza is completely covered, every square inch, in civilian buildings? This is, *of course*, not the case.
So they all have to stand in an open field where the inevitable result is a few bombs to whipe them out in a matter of a seconds? When people fight for their freedom (and im not saying these guys arent terrorists), it is not unheard of for them to integrate with civilians in an attempt to be covert, when your on the loosing side this particular aspect is to be expected.. its only when they use people as human shields by actively attacking from a location without letting the civilians leave that it becomes an issue (something both sides are guilty of).
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Erik Haugen (ech@qoto.org)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Oct-2023 07:58:10 JST
Erik Haugen
@freemo @realcaseyrollins @Miriamm @kjetil_kilhavn Wha? It is absolutely not the case that they have no choice but to have military installations in the same buildings as hospitals/schools/residences. There are "literally" other places they could have them.
You seem to be under the impression that Gaza is completely covered, every square inch, in civilian buildings? This is, *of course*, not the case.
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🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Wednesday, 18-Oct-2023 07:58:11 JST
🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
How could they not hide behind human shields.. They live in very tightly packed ghettos... there are no isolated military bunkers... Literally there is no place for them to be except in civlian locations.
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🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org)'s status on Thursday, 19-Oct-2023 18:57:23 JST
🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱
And your reply sounds like something a toxic person would say who is incapable of discussing things critically, if at all.
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