Vidar Hokstad / Galaxy Bound
@TruthSandwich @Alon @futurebird
Yes, you've just explained in the first 3 tree paragraphs: 1) why it's more democratic, 2) why it tends to counter extremism.
You've then described in the 4th paragraph why FPTP fails to contain extremism, and forces "lesser evil" voting because for a large proportion of the electorate, their preferred option will have been eliminated and so is *not represented at all* in the final vote.
Thank you for thoroughly explaining why FPTP is fucked up.
myrmepropagandist
I thought you were talking about “communists” now it’s “American socialists” in — placed as equal & opposite to a growing fascist movement that nearly took over the country. Really? This is irresponsible and either disingenuous (or if not disingenuous, ignorant.)
There is no American Socialist Movement.
Social democrats … exist and are politically marginalized.
To call even the group of five or six college students who *think* they are Communists as power hungry as fascists is absurd.
Truth Sandwich 🥪🇺🇸😷
Bullshit. American fascists want to be in charge. So do the socialists.
If your premise starts with a lie, there’s no point continuing.
Vidar Hokstad / Galaxy Bound
@TruthSandwich @Alon @futurebird
Nobody wants extremists in charge. Not even the people you consider extremists. But FPTP does not just prevent them from being in charge, but prevents a whole of people meaningful representation. Some of those will be extremists. Some of those will be people who consider you extremists. Democracy is allowing all of them representation on equal terms, and FPTP *inherently* gives disproportionate outcomes.
Truth Sandwich 🥪🇺🇸😷
It is profoundly pro-democratic to favor a system that creates a working government. It is profoundly anti-democratic to want extremists in charge.
You have no idea what you’re talking about.
Vidar Hokstad / Galaxy Bound
@TruthSandwich @Alon @futurebird
Representation proportional to your number is explicitly *not* provided by FPTP.
You know this, and you explain what a horrific risk it causes, *and* that you understand how this system deprives groups of representation, and you try to present this as a feature.
But all you're achieving is laying bare a typical anti-democratic attitude. A commitment to democracy is measured by how willing you are for those you label extreme to be represented too.
Truth Sandwich 🥪🇺🇸😷
I’m arguing against extremists taking over the country. Any functioning government has to rest somewhere above the political center of gravity. Otherwise, there’s no enough overlap for compromise and you actually do get unrepresentative government.
Representation means they have influence proportional to their number. This is provided by any democracy. The failure point is when a group too extreme to represent the nation as a whole somehow gets power despite this.
America found out what happens when the extremists take over a major party. In fact, we almost lost the DNC to its extremist wing, too.
Luckily, they were too racist to succeed.
Vidar Hokstad / Galaxy Bound
@TruthSandwich @Alon @futurebird
You're arguing against representation of views you don't like. You're arguing for outright authoritarianism.
The favorite argument of authoritarians everywhere is to try to dismiss voters' right to representation if they don't hold the views you like the way you're doing here.
It's fascinating to me just how terrified right-wingers like you are of ensuring people's views are properly represented.
Truth Sandwich 🥪🇺🇸😷
Your choices were constrained in the first place. It is a good thing that fringe factions that don’t represent society as a whole are disempowered.
Anyhow, I’m done here. It’s late.
Vidar Hokstad / Galaxy Bound
@TruthSandwich @Alon @futurebird
Voting for the "best" candidate remaining after your preferred option is off the table is also voting for the lesser evil
The lesser evil framing is rooted in understanding that when you constrain choices, you prevent an accurate representation of what people want.
Yes, it's a fight for power, and with FPTP it's a fight that is thoroughly rigged, to the point it's utterly vile and disgusting to see people defend the effective disenfranchisement they cause.
Truth Sandwich 🥪🇺🇸😷
Voting for the best candidate who can win is voting for the best candidate.
The “lesser evil” framing is rooted in a misunderstanding of what voting is for. Hint: it’s not a place for you to express your individuality and personal opinions, it’s a fight for power.
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
Europe has, not only marginal, social democrats and socialists in many countries.
It is high time that the US arrive at least in the 20th, if not in the 21st century.
This is a bad joke.
Really very generally speaking, most US "leftists" appear to be at center, if not "right-of-center" by Continental European standards.
There are already two McCarthys that have done considerable damage to the American Experiment.
A second fake Red Scare has to be prevented.
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
(1/n)
Thank you for offering some further points for debate.
I will not start arguing about what Bernie Sanders (one person) and "socialist populists" might have said.
I am just asking: are you really offering RussiaToday and Twitter as sources?
Furthermore, you seem to underestimate how far the left spectrum in Europe goes.
As an example, here ist a screenshot from one of the two leading German business newspapers (#Handelsblatt) from 3 years ago. The #EU's
Truth Sandwich 🥪🇺🇸😷
None of this is true.
Bernie Sanders called for forced nationalization of industry, which puts him to the left of the far left in Europe.
The socialist populists accept support from Russia and openly brag about “the revolution”.
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
(2/n)
...leadership was discussing #nationalization of key companies. Fortunatelly, the Pandemic did not lead to the nationalization of all of these companies.
Furthermore, the adminstration of national natural resources has proven exploitative and to the detriment of the national interests in many Western countries (e.g. #BigOil, water privatiziation in the #UK, etc.)
Just this week, the CA state government successfully...
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
(3/n)
...halted an abusive water-extraction practice that had persisted for decades. And you only need 5 minutes what #Nestlé ist doing globally.
I am not in favor of #socialism, however equating #socialism with #nationalization is just incorrect (see second screenshot)
Home European Socialists and the State in the Twentieth and Twenty-First Centuries Chapter
European Socialists and the...
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
(4/n)
...State: A Comparative and Transnational Approach
Mathieu Fulla & Marc Lazar
Chapter
First Online: 06 August 2020
290 Accesses
Part of the Palgrave Studies in the History of Social Movements book series (PSHSM)
"Abstract
Many political observers in Western democratic countries equate socialism with statism. From the late 1970s onwards, numerous socialist elites and experts have helped to nurture this widespread belief. This...
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
(5/n)
...chapter aims to dispel this reductive, indeed incorrect, account of the relationship between West European socialism and the idea, form, and use of the state. It challenges what remains a dominant interpretation of the left’s propensity for state intervention in political and journalistic debates." *
Now, I do agree that there have been huge #DarkMoney flows...
*
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
(6/6)
..from the #Kremlin to the #US. Much of it has been documented to go to the #NRA. And we all know which party they generally support. (Of course, that is not the whole picture - see e.g. Sen. #Whitehouse's investigation.)
//
Paul Cantrell
@futurebird
I mean, yeah, let’s be clear: authoritarian communist movements of the mid-20th century — Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot — were brutal, horrific, and unconscionable, and if •they• were the ones who were politically ascendant now, my anti-authoritarian principles would mobilize me just as I’m mobilized again fascism. But right now, Hitlerism is ascendant, and Stalinism is not even off the horizon beyond the distant shore beyond the horizon of current politics. That’s the fact of this moment.
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