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   :pdx_elk: (rose@503junk.house)'s status on Thursday, 14-Sep-2023 02:38:49 JST :pdx_elk:

   I posted some of these thoughts to followers only yesterday, but with some of the overt transmisogyny now permeating I'll be more public.

   There is anti-blackness on this site. There is transmisogyny on this site. No one should be dismissing either of those statements.

   Similarly, strong moderation is good, and at the same time one moderation model isn't going to fit everyone. I think we all are in agreement there.

   I also find it impossible to deny the moderation model at thebadsapce seems to pull from groups who disproportionately moderate trans women more harshly. This list (at least the current public list) is an ostracization list that lots of people look to, and it lists a bunch of trans spaces. That calls for at least some introspection.

   My instance is on there in the "oops, fixed in beta category", but we are still being defamed and accused of hate speech publicly, anonymously, and with no reference. I don't think it's a huge deal, but it sucks. I could have friends push me away over it. I could have work connections look that up on google and pass me on a job.

   Moderation is hard and developing tools is great. Not holding ourselves accountable for racist actions sucks. Claiming trans women inherently are toxic and thus disposable (which I'm seeing a ton of) sucks.

   • novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ repeated this.
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     :pdx_elk: (rose@503junk.house)'s status on Thursday, 14-Sep-2023 02:38:46 JST :pdx_elk:

     in reply to

     It's worth mentioning I used "thebadspace" as the CW mostly to help catch people's filters here. It's not just (or mostly) that website that is at issue. It's actually contributing instances that are mostly ran by white folks. I personally see the most ferocious attacks against trans women from white queer people, a lot of times other trans women.

     It really is a problem that permeates all of the fediverse. In this case, it just happens to be manifesting in this one particular list that happens to pull block/silence information from these instances who have a track record of moderating trans women more harshly than others.

   • Embed this notice
     :pdx_elk: (rose@503junk.house)'s status on Thursday, 14-Sep-2023 02:38:47 JST :pdx_elk:

     in reply to

     Black individuals and communities do get driven off fedi. They are treated as disposable here.

     Trans women and communities do get driven off fedi. They are treated as disposable here.

     We can't claim one is worse than the other. We can't resort to us vs them mentality.

     No one is disposable, and our moderation needs to reflect that to meet the vision of an inclusive and thriving fediverse that I believe we all share.

     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ repeated this.
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     :pdx_elk: (rose@503junk.house)'s status on Thursday, 14-Sep-2023 02:38:48 JST :pdx_elk:

     in reply to

     If you are wondering why I "didn't reach out directly" or why I originally posted this on lock, it's because I have spoken up about it in the past. I did directly reach out. I used to financially contribute to early development of the Bad Space. I've worked on multiple sites building moderation tools, and even a couple on the fediverse over the past decade. I love seeing thoughtful work go into these and want to support their development.

     My fairly soft criticism and that of others was met with immediate dismissal as being complicity racist. A lot of times this would end in mass ostracization, addition to the list, and dog piling for what I think are fairly benign and thoughtful critiques.

     But it's hard. I do understand needing to have strong boundaries especially in hostile spaces.

     I do think it's now at the point that we need to say "hey, there are some pernicious aspects of this, and driving trans women from the table for bringing criticism probably isn't the answer".

     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ repeated this.
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     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Thursday, 14-Sep-2023 08:01:12 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     @rose yeah whenever I talk about how Ro responds to any and all criticism or people being upset at him for irresponsively harming people or people asking him for a little accountability by accusing people of being raving lunatic racists out to get him someone will inevitably say "oh there are some people that have totally brought criticisms to him and had them accepted", and since the start I've been incredibly dubious of that claim given the way he is responding to things here, and sure enough what do you know someone with experience with him backs that doubt up.

     Honestly it's a very very obvious that his insistence that people with good faith criticisms would be welcomed but everyone is just a racist is all simply a rhetorical move designed to paint himself as reasonable and his enemies as racist, and to tone police people — if you ask nicely to be taken off his slander list like a good little girl then you're one of the good white people but if you get upset at him for how he's handled things or criticize the fundamental way that the bad space has been put together then you're enforcing white supremacy and racist and should be shot into the Sun

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     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Thursday, 14-Sep-2023 08:17:01 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     @rose yeah I don't think Ro himself is actually transphobic or responsible for it. I think the instances he pulled from have an issue with transmisogyny. And like you said, they're mostly white. And I do understand *why* he might rhetorically frame things as he does. But the rhetoric is still disingenuous and has the effect of being a trap that makes it hard for trans women to speak up, and tone polices them regarding the harm he's caused, and protects him from criticism, while simultaneously, *again* and *again* painting trans women as racist.

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     :pdx_elk: (rose@503junk.house)'s status on Thursday, 14-Sep-2023 08:17:02 JST :pdx_elk:

     in reply to

     • novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     @anarchopunk_girl I don't always agree with Ro, but I do respect him. I also understand why he responds the way he does to bigots on here.

     I want to make sure not to put the onus on him for a lot of what I'm talking about, because it's not just a Ro issue or thebadspace issue. There are also areas of the fediverse that are more responsible for the type of trans misogyny and direct harassment campaigns of trans women I'm talking about, and a lot of those spaces are ran by white queers. None of the ones I'm thinking of are even ran by Black admins.

     I think thebadspace pulls from a set of instances that intersect with that group. I don't think just going after Ro does much but encourages bad actors to continue to attack him.

     My only ask of him if I did reach out would be to take down the incorrect / buggy version of the list that has been agreed is making assertions that are not correct.

     My bigger ask is of the whole fediverse is to consider their trans misogyny and how it might play out in unconscious bias.

   • Embed this notice
     :pdx_elk: (rose@503junk.house)'s status on Thursday, 14-Sep-2023 08:43:26 JST :pdx_elk:

     in reply to

     • novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     @anarchopunk_girl I guess to put it another way, I'm not at all afraid of Ro. If it was just him yelling at me for saying something I'd be able to deal with it fine. I can disagree with him and move on in those cases. At worst, he maybe hurt my feelings once.

     The group in the periphery (who again are mostly white queers) who turn up punitive consequences for people who bring up a criticism, then harass and pile-on to anyone who steps out of line do actually scare me and have caused me harm.

     The unconscious transmisogyny shows up across all parties (hell I have internalized transmisogyny I have to check regularly), and I don't think there's much to particularly aim at Ro other than his unique responsibilities of the technical aspects of thebadspace.

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     novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Thursday, 14-Sep-2023 08:43:26 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     @rose yeah I mostly agree, but I do think Ro is on a rampage of accusing anyone with criticisms or suggestions for thebadspace of being racist.

     Ex, https://archive.ph/lHBEX

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     dragora@kolektiva.social's status on Thursday, 14-Sep-2023 09:03:01 JST dragora

     in reply to

     • novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     @anarchopunk_girl @rose I'm genuinely sympathetic to people not wanting to take feedback from randos on personal projects, but it does seem a little disingenuous to subsequently insist that you're open to it. I'm also a little confused about how this is meaningfully a community project, given that as far as I can tell, every commit comes from him (if that's just an artifact of some nonstandard PR process, then never mind).