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Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 12:37:51 JST 
Microchimera
Over 50% of Roman Catholic dogma was created after 1870 (not kidding, buy the Ignatius Press version of Denzinger) and they want me to believe this is an ancient institution. -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 12:37:50 JST 
NEETzsche
@opphunter88 based if true -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 12:45:44 JST
NEETzsche
@caekislove @opphunter88 Luther chads stay winning. This is particularly amusing because I keep bringing up canonicity to opphunter and he's particularly against fucking around with the canon in my experience. -
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Caek Islove ? ❤️ (caekislove@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 12:45:45 JST 
Caek Islove ? ❤️
@NEETzsche @opphunter88 People who believe that Biblical Judiasm gives some sort of pass to modern judiasm (whish isn't even Judiasm as people understood it in the first century - the Talmud was written hundreds of years after the death of Christ) have succumbed to propaganda and heresy. -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 12:47:14 JST
NEETzsche
@caekislove @opphunter88 Vatican II was like the second Great Apostasy of the Catholic Church. I'm not sure if I can say that though because it's questionable if you can lose legitimacy that you don't have in the first place -
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Caek Islove ? ❤️ (caekislove@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 12:47:15 JST
Caek Islove ? ❤️
@opphunter88 @NEETzsche Vatican II was a tragedy. -
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Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 12:47:16 JST
Microchimera
@caekislove @NEETzsche Did you know that Vatican II dogmatized rabbinical judaism as a valid path to salvation?
Papists can’t stop losing. -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 12:53:32 JST
NEETzsche
@opphunter88 @caekislove Starting Mormonism II where I re-restore the gospel by removing all modern cuckoldry and make church policy and revolve around which Bible/Book of Mormon verses are the most based. I'm going to call my denomination Correctivism because it's all about correcting past mistakes and also about being Correct with a Capital C.
Let's start here. Nogunz faggots can't make it past the terrestrial kingdom because they're bitchmade. -
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Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 12:53:33 JST
Microchimera
@caekislove @NEETzsche If Vatican II had never happened, there is a good chance I would have turned out Roman Catholic, so in that sense, it was a good thing. I would hate to have been deceived by trad aesthetics. -
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Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 13:03:19 JST
Microchimera
@NEETzsche @caekislove The idea that Protestants changed the canon is ludicrous.
What happened is, there was already a distinction between protocanon and deuterocanon. When the humanist movement happened, we needed to decide how we were going to justify dogma based on the original Scriptures. Protestants decided that the protocanon can establish, and the deuterocanon (or apocrypha) can only inform it.
Roman Catholics also largely accepted this ancient distinction, which goes back to St Jerome, including Luther’s critics. But the Council of Trent, to set themselves against reformers, decided to abolish the distinction altogether, and call everything protocanonical.
However, this was not the case in the East. If you look in Eastern Orthodox catechisms, they will still make the same distinctions Protestants do. Their protocanonical list is still the 66 book canon, though the deuterocanon is still in lectionaries (as it sometimes is in Protestant lectionaries, as well.)
There’s a separate issue, which had to do with printing. Publishers, at a date well after the Reformation, decided it was prudent not to print the deuterocanon because it wasn’t as important, and then when Bible translation became an industry in its own rite, Protestant groups usually opted not to bother with the deuterocanon for the same reason, it’s just not an important use of resources.
Uneducated Roman Catholics will take these modern business decisions, and anachronistically attribute them to Luther. I disagree with those decisions, I don’t use Bibles without the apocrypha, but that’s not something that you can put on the Reformers. Luther did have his opinions on the legitimacy of certain books, which were wrong, but some of those he recanted, and the Lutheran tradition has never followed him on that point, nor has any Protestant tradition.
Thank u for coming to my micro-lecture. -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 13:03:19 JST
NEETzsche
@opphunter88 I ordered that four part series of tomes so I can read about those topics in a much more serious context. But if I'm being honest I just wanted to yank your chain here.
Also if you can cherry pick Luther I can cherry pick Joseph Smith :anintellectual:
@caekislove -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 13:07:11 JST
NEETzsche
@opphunter88 @caekislove Nah RLDS doesn't count it's still Mormonism II. Correctivism's second act will be to edit Matthew 5 out of the Bible because cucktianity keeps using it as a pretext to be a pacifist wuss. The Sermon on the Mount, or at least this part of it, was a mistake.
To be entirely clear I'm not serious about this. -
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Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 13:07:12 JST
Microchimera
@NEETzsche @caekislove Mormonism 2 already exists, it’s called the RLDS Church. You’ll have to start Mormonism 3.
If you’re going to start with a heretical organization because you don’t like the Trinity, it makes more sense to start with JW’s or “Two Babylons” Baptists than Mormonism, though. -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 13:14:46 JST
NEETzsche
@opphunter88 There are certain things LDS can do that would convince me to just leave. If they really cuck on the fag shit like the big Lutheran churches did, I'm just done. I'm also inclined to leave if they selectively enforce anti-racism on white people.
I suppose my view on religion is much more orthopractic than it is orthodoxic. I really don't take denomination wars very seriously on scriptural grounds, I look at how people actually act. It's a big paradoxical because I spend quite a bit of time reading these texts, but when I take all of them on board in their totality this is the conclusion I arrive at: all of this abstruse theological crap doesn't matter as much as actually being decent.
@caekislove -
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Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 13:14:47 JST
Microchimera
@NEETzsche @caekislove Lutherans are not bound to Luther, we’re bound to the Book of Concord.
Luther is not our prophet or our Pope. He had no authority beyond that of a typical cleric.
I would agree that you’re not necessarily bound to Joseph Smith or other prophets, except when they’re speaking dogmatically. But even then, the LDS church is down with just changing doctrine, so I guess you’re not practically bound to any of it.NEETzsche likes this. -
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Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 13:14:49 JST
Microchimera
@NEETzsche @caekislove I know NEETzsche likes this. -
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Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 13:27:35 JST
Microchimera
@NEETzsche @caekislove I understand that perspective. I'm certainly less particular about denominationalism than I used to be. I don't attend an LCMS church anymore because, even though they're mostly orthodox, they work with Antifa to harass conservatives who advocate for white issues. The reason I identify myself as a Lutheran is because I believe the Book of Concord is the best representation of Christian doctrine (other than the Bible) that exists on this earth. -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 13:27:35 JST
NEETzsche
@opphunter88 I call myself a Mormon because even though I'm well aware Joseph Smith was a deeply flawed man, I think he was on to a lot more than people want to let on. There aren't a lot of things from scripture that I take entirely at face value. The resurrection of Christ is one of those few things. But I really do regard all of these efforts by each Church, with their six million canons and their extremely particular interpretations of cherry picked verses, to insist that they are The Church are pretty transparent power grabs and little more.
But seriously fuck antifa
@caekislove -
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Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 13:48:06 JST
Microchimera
@NEETzsche @caekislove Sure, and I like to think I’m fair to the LDS as well.
The LDS church is organized brilliantly. Joseph Smith accurately predicted the American Civil War, and the exact location where it would start. It’s in the oldest facsimile printings of the D&C you can find, no one can deny that.
The man is also genuinely trying to figure things out in his private journals. If he was a liar, he did it enough that he believed his own stories. I tend to think he really did communicate with some kind of spirits, probably demons.
We see a similar pattern with Islam, which gets a lot of basics of morality and discipline right, but deviates just enough to undermine the precise nature of Christ’s saving work.NEETzsche likes this. -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 13:48:06 JST
NEETzsche
Part of what leads me to the conclusion that Joseph Smith was onto something legitimate is that you can synthesize Mormonism with a sections from a lot of those Gnostic texts much easier than you can synthesize it with Nicene Christianity. “Your star has led you astray Judas,” and so on. It’s just too specific; he didn’t just make that stuff up, and he didn’t have access to the Nag Hammadi texts.
I’ve considered the possibility that he was speaking with demons or some other similarly evil entity, but when people go down that road the word “heretical” comes up real fast, and as we both know, being “heretical” literally just means not agreeing with Orthodoxy. So it’s kind of begging the question; imagine if I were to just copy-paste chunks of the LDS website to you and call you an “apostate” every time you went off the LDS reservation. It would be stupid, and it’s special pleading to say that it being stupid doesn’t go both ways.
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 14:31:23 JST
NEETzsche
Sure, but this all leads to questions on what/who The Church is, if it’s to be structured as an apostolic succession, if that succession holds a certain Automatically Right stature regardless of its actual conduct, and so on. We both agree that the Catholic/Orthodox structure does not benefit from Automatically Right stature, otherwise we’d regard Pope Francis as legit.
Where we disagree, I think, is on the indefectibility, inerrancy, infallibility, etc, of scripture. My argument against this is that we’re getting third hand (or even further removed) texts that have gone through who knows how many rounds of editing, reconstruction, compilation, and who knows what else, to arrive at what we’re reading. It’s why I’m very open to reading basically anything, but when I do, you should imagine in my mind every bit of being prepended with: “Consider the following:”
As a consequence of the aforementioned third handness of all of these texts, it’s my view that the buck stops at me to sort the wheat from the chaff. This amounts to cherry picking. In my daily life, it is my duty to behold and be honest about what I’m seeing, and in my literary life, it is my duty to read and to be honest about what I’m reading. And I have to go in knowing that there is some verrrrrryyyy sophisticated bullshit out there designed specifically to deceive me, and everybody else. What this amounts to is a duty to pierce the veil, basically. In this respect, I am unironically Gnostic, because I believe that I will receive divine guidance on these topics.
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Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 14:31:24 JST
Microchimera
@NEETzsche @caekislove You either take it as an axiom that the Holy Spirit preserved his faith through the Church, as Christ promised Peter he would, or you don’t.
There’s no point in arguing that with someone unless they accept the indefectibility of Scripture. Or rather, I’m not smart enough to do it. I’m sure the late medieval scholastics made a case for it when responding to Muslims, but it would be such a long argument that it would be useless for most people.NEETzsche likes this. -
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Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 15:14:28 JST
Microchimera
@NEETzsche @caekislove this all leads to questions on what/who The Church is, if it’s to be structured as an apostolic succession, if that succession holds a certain Automatically Right stature regardless of its actual conduct, and so on.
Apostolic succession is something that originally served a very practical purpose; to distinguish true from false teachers. Orthodox Christians could tell you exactly where their teachings came from, all the way back, because it had only been a couple of generations, whereas the gnostic heretics had to claim it was “secret” and that’s why you couldn’t trace it.
There are diminishing returns on that, though. It makes sense when your teacher directly knew an apostle, but once you get past 3rd generation, it becomes harder and harder to verify where things have mutated, especially because each new bishop is ordaining potentially dozens of new bishops in his lifetime.
Apostolic Succession as a necessary mark of the Church is foreign to the Apostolic Fathers. It’s a corruption. As for what the Church is, the Greek word is just ecclesia. If there is a body of true Christians with a hierarchy, that’s the Church. The thing that separates true from false is whether they worship Christ. But Nestorians, for example, are not the Church, because they don’t worship the real Christ. The atonement doesn’t make sense if he’s just a spirit in a skin suit.
we’re getting third hand … texts that have gone through who knows how many rounds of editing, reconstruction, compilation, and who knows what else…
That definitely didn’t happen for the New Testament, because both the text and the Church were decentralized. There’s no recorded event like the revision of the Quran, it was just distributed and copied in different locations. The only “revisions” were after the Christianization of Rome, minor variants from different manuscripts in the empire were synthesized to agree with one other. But we also have large manuscripts from outside the empire, and prior to the synthesizing. We already know what it looked like before then, and it’s barely different at all.
You have more of a case in the Old Testament, because it’s more clearly a series of composite documents and we don’t know exactly where it came from. It doesn’t take a Hebrew expert to realize the vocabulary changes vastly between different places, even within the same book. There’s also the problem of the Masoretic vs the Septuagint, and older Hebrew variants agreeing with the Greek. But the Greek is often paraphrase, so you can’t use it as a primary source either.
It’s fucked, but one thing we can trust is that the New Testament, which has a much stronger proof, presupposes the accuracy of the Old Testament, and even though Old Testament variants are broader than New Testament ones, we still don’t have anything that deviates all that much. Except in cases where it varies so much that it doesn’t even constitute the same book, like Jubilees, or the Dead Sea Scrolls version of Genesis and Exodus.
Even with all that evidence, there’s not necessarily any sign of deliberate tampering prior to the split between jews and Christians. The composite nature of the document can be attributed to the loss of Old Hebrew as a language in late antiquity. We can presuppose that there is genuine editing, or that there isn’t. I trust that if there was, we would know about it. Christ or one of the Apostles would have told us.
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 15:14:28 JST
NEETzsche
@opphunter88 We aren't granted the opportunity for a full picture. Most of the texts were suppressed. Many may have been edited. Consider that these people made up their mind on what was and wasn't legitimate and then spent centuries destroying all texts and ostracizing or worse all men who challenged it. So you say that Christ would have told us.
Maybe He did. You'll never know by blind trust.
@caekislove -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 15:26:00 JST
NEETzsche
@opphunter88 That's... exactly how it worked. I can cite specific cases of things being added in or taken out. Some editing has definitely taken place, it's just a matter of to what extent. Combine the confirmed editing of "canonical" scripture with the confirmed suppression of non-canonical scripture amounts to a strong case against approaching their conclusions and writings with a generous dollop of skepticism.
The Catholic canon is not complete nor is it inerrant. No serious view of the totality of the facts allows for either.
@caekislove -
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Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 15:26:01 JST
Microchimera
@NEETzsche @caekislove That's not how it worked, there are copies from all over the world in completely different languages from Christian groups that were all in schism from one another.
There would had to have been a centralized authority to suppress and edit texts, so it couldn't have happened until the late 4th Century, but we have manuscripts from before that time, and there are no significant differences, even in Ethiopia and Armenia, who have always operated independently from the rest of Christendom.
If Biblical texts were edited, it could only have been the Old Testament, and I gave my thoughts on that near the end of my last post. -
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Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 15:32:38 JST
Microchimera
@NEETzsche @caekislove The only serious edits you can pose for the New Testament are the ending of Mark, and the woman caught in adultery. I think the ending of Mark is legitimate, but the woman caught in adultery probably isn't. -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 15:32:38 JST
NEETzsche
@opphunter88 Inerrant means inerrant. It means no errors. It's a humongous claim and it's a very delicate to defend position. You brought up one case where you admit it was illegitimate and another where you concede that it's at best dubious. You've already conceded half of my point. The other half being that they suppressed texts that contradicted their very tightly defined theology.
@caekislove -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 15:41:25 JST
NEETzsche
@opphunter88 Edits propagate by accident all the time. Just look at academia I can give examples where entire fields were predicated on single studies done decades ago, and those studies were bullshit. They couldn't be reproduced or they were just wrong. There might have been a conspiracy, but you don't even need one. I've seen it first hand in many contexts, and I'm going to give you a very funny, but secular example.
You can stop reading here if you just want to take my word for it, but I am going to get into the long form of this.
One of the hobbies I have are tabletop role-playing games and my favorite tabletop role-playing game for very many years was World of Darkness. If you've ever seen Vampire: the Masquerade, the video games about it etc, then you know what I'm talking about, but world of darkness and compasses all the other common supernatural critters that you can play in that game as well. Now, there's sort of a culture behind these games. People write their own homebrew rules and pass those documents around online as PDFs. Some of these house rules and homebrew mechanics that people made up get traction. People edit these documents, they splice other people's work into their own, and so on.
One of the big "splats" in this game line is Mage: the Awakening. In it, you play as a wizard and the key game mechanic is that you can kind of make up your own spells on the fly but there are constraints that sort of limit what you can do based on your character's stats. Anyway, there's a kind of book that the players of this game pass around called a grimoire, which is a book of spells that people made up. These aren't real spells, like things you do in real life, it's just a game, but they group them together.
There are a handful of spells that I wrote which appear in basically everybody's grimoire. A lot of the spells I wrote, people who played this game thought were radiotic. But a handful of them everyone seems to like, and everybody's grimoire seems to have them, to the extent that people consistently presuppose that these spells I made up in my basement apartment playing this game online, think are canon. Like you need to correct people on this topic because they think the original game authors really wrote them and are taken aback when they check the official manual and they're nowhere to be found.
This is a very secular example of what I'm describing, and it took place without any kind of conspiracy. Things propagate all the time and it's a crap shoot which ones are real and which ones aren't.
@caekislove -
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Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 15:41:26 JST
Microchimera
@NEETzsche @caekislove How would an edit propagate universally with no central authority? If someone edits Scripture in Alexandria, for example, how do they get that change to make it all the way to Armenia?
You can't, especially not in the time frame of the earliest New Testament manuscripts. It's not possible.
The Old Testament is a different story, because history gets very fuzzy once you go that far back. As I said, I bridge the gap there by inferring the Old Testament from the New. -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 16:10:48 JST
NEETzsche
@opphunter88 The Gospels essentially copy paste chunks from each other. I don't feel like getting into the weeds with you on this because I'm sure you already read all about the Q documents and pseudo Pauline Epistles etc. I'm not going to play the game that modern scholars do and insist that the synoptic Gospels are fully ex post facto fabrications, but I'm not going to take it face value that they are anywhere near the original autograph. They were purportedly written decades after the fact. Their final forms weren't reached until centuries after the fact. There was a lot of reconstruction, editing, etc, going on.
What we have today is very far removed.
@caekislove -
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Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 16:10:49 JST
Microchimera
@NEETzsche @caekislove It’s a good example, but it assumes a cross contamination that wouldn’t have existed across different regions in early manuscripts unless the edits happened very early on.
This effect is demonstrated by the existence of different text families for the New Testament. Certain types of mutations remain localized to Alexandria, or the Byzantine mainland, or wherever.
Once one manuscript is translated into Coptic, it has inherited whatever errors every Greek copy prior to that point had, no one is going to translate it into Coptic again, so it’s preserved from any further errors from the original Greek. Instead, it will have its own family of mutations, completely separate from its origins.
I don’t have a good literature term for this, so I’m just going to borrow from biology and call it speciation. One this family speciates, it will, generally speaking, be immune to any attempts at revision. Especially if it’s far away from Rome and Constantinople. However, when text critics analyze these different species, the deviation is, by most accounts, over 95% identical, and most of those differences are typos.
If there was an attempt to edit all of them, it would have to be a worldwide conspiracy, as actually did happen with the Quran.
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 16:43:13 JST
NEETzsche
@opphunter88 "explained"
Argued, maybe. Apologized. But not "explained." The critiques I've offered aren't exactly defeated. They do not go away.
The bottom line is you must take the Orthodox narrative -- and that's exactly what it is -- basically at face value, uncritically, to arrive at the conclusion that their take is correct. In reality, we do not know which manuscripts they actually were in possession of, which ones they discarded, which ones they kept, how they spliced them all together, and so on. It's all speculation and in the end it rests on source: dude trust me.
It's well understood that Gnostic texts were largely destroyed. They weren't merely forgotten but actively gotten rid of. They were only rediscovered as a fluke millennia after the fact. This places you in a very difficult predicament, intellectually. How do you know the Orthodox version is the correct one, and they didn't simply burn all the manuscripts they regarded they regarded as "heretical" and lie about it? They literally formed councils that were about, in no small part, shutting people down for wrongthink. They were just like those trust the science faggots are today. The censor does not have the benefit of the doubt here.
Show us that they didn't just push a narrative more effectively than the other early Christians like Valentinus and Marcion.
@caekislove -
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Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 16:43:14 JST
Microchimera
@NEETzsche @caekislove The Gospels essentially copy paste chunks from each other
Luke copies from Matthew, that’s it. Luke also admits he’s pulling from other sources in the prologue. Modern scholars add a lot of speculation and try to make a scandal out of this, but there’s really nothing to it.
There’s no evidence for Q and it was never even accepted by worldwide academia, it only gained traction in pop level books and Jesus Seminar type projects.
pseudo Pauline Epistles
Entirely explained by dictation, which we know happened, because some of the epistles reference being dictated.
There was a lot of reconstruction, editing, etc, going on.
I’m not going to convince you otherwise, but I’ve explained at length why they couldn’t have been significantly edited unless it happened extremely early on. Like, even before the turn of the next century, because they’re referenced by Pope Clement I, and Clement’s first epistle is practically identical in content to a Pauline epistle.
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 16:47:23 JST
NEETzsche
@opphunter88 Except your "explanation" doesn't cover the active destruction of texts and the selective reading of the ones they prefer. It just doesn't. It merely presupposes that such efforts didn't really take place. But they did.
It's trivial to explain how they could have done this without it being edited early on. There could have simply been competing texts early on, and they just got rid of all the ones they didn't like. So much for your "explanation."
@caekislove -
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Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 16:47:24 JST
Microchimera
@NEETzsche @caekislove I literally gave an explanation for why what you suggested is impossible. You just don't like it. -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 16:58:09 JST
NEETzsche
@opphunter88 You never addressed the possiblity of competing early texts that simply didn't survive a censorship effort in the fourth century. This idea that no efforts at censorship of texts written centuries earlier can succeed is preposterous because we know some such efforts did.
@caekislove -
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Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 16:58:10 JST
Microchimera
@NEETzsche @caekislove There could have simply been competing texts early on, and they just got rid of all the ones they didn’t like. So much for your “explanation.”
I literally addressed this possibility multiple times, and why that’s basically impossible, and you ignored it.
You clearly aren’t reading my responses. You haven’t argued my points, you just act like I didn’t make them.
Why do you start these conversations with me if you don’t read what I have to say?
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 17:35:51 JST
NEETzsche
@opphunter88 Both Valentinus and Marcion were far from irrelevant, so this idea that writings coming from them were merely forgotten and not suppressed is incorrect on that basis alone. Irenaeus wrote about Valentinus in Against Heresies in about 180. Tertullian writes Against the Valentinians in about 200. Irenaeus demands Florinus be removed for Valentinianism around the same time. Hippolytus rails against Valentinians in "Against All Heresies" in around 230. Plotinus writes "Against the Gnostics" around 270 to curb the influence of Valentinians.
Irrelevant? No. This wasn't some passing fad. It was a thorn in early Orthodoxy's side for literally centuries. In 326 all Valentinians excommunicated as Orthodoxy becomes State religion of Rome.
Church authorities ban "heretical" writings around 350. Let me repeat that:
CHURCH AUTHORITIES BAN HERETICAL WRITINGS AROUND 350 AD
Around 385 Valentinians executed for heresy in Spain. Brutal persecution continues. Their texts lost for nearly two full millennia, and those recovered only a small portion of the body of their work. It's documented. We know this happened and it happened as I describe it.
Valentinianism still lived in spite of that even at around 700 according to Trullan Synod. This was not just some stupid fad that was "irrelevant."
You're a step beyond wrong about this. I'm convinced that you're being deliberately dishonest actually.
Were you merely unaware of this (rough, I'm lifting and I don't remember the exact dates) chronology or are you actively in denial about Christian history? You're going to have to take an L on this one. My patience for counter-reality dogmatism has its limits.
@caekislove -
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Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 17:35:52 JST
Microchimera
@NEETzsche @caekislove Actually I did. I made multiple posts addressing that exact scenario, although we were talking about New Testament reliability, I don't know why you're bringing up Gnostic texts again.
Monasteries preserved heretical texts literally all the time, even banned books. That's why we still have the writings of Pelagius and the Infancy Gospels, for example. If the Gnostic books were relevant in the Christian world at large, at least a few copies would have survived, if only in remote places like Armenia.
In all probability, they were lost because they were irrelevant. That's also why only a couple of Gnostic writings are even referenced in polemical literature. No one knew about them. They were just obscure little tools created by grifters and discarded when they weren't useful anymore.
Manichaeanism also rose to popularity in the Empire at pretty much the exact same time as references to Gnosticsim decline. They were probably absorbed. They propose a similar worldview. -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 19:08:30 JST
NEETzsche
@FourOh-LLC Christianity started out splintered into many groups and needed unification. It took centuries. If you look at the first, second, third councils, most of them were about shutting down "Heresies" (anything disagreeing with the Orthodox Church). But even the first one took centuries. They had to reconstruct and edit all of the New Testament scriptures.
@opphunter88 -
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FourOh-LLC (fouroh-llc@pkteerium.xyz)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 19:08:31 JST 
FourOh-LLC
In a few hundred years after the Crucifixion the "Church" fractured into many (dozens?) of direction, and "Christianity" was coined.
One may say that Humans cannot conceptualize and maintain anything substantial without forming an institution around it, above it, below it.
In my opinion that is the flaw, which is our lack of capacity. -
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Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 19:08:32 JST
Microchimera
@FourOh-LLC The Church was founded by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, when he descended on the Apostles.
When Paul and the others wrote their epistles, they were writing to the institutional church established by Jesus Christ.
There’s nothing wrong with institutions. There is something wrong with claiming you institution is infallible when all the leaders are fucking hookers and children in the Vatican apartments. -
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FourOh-LLC (fouroh-llc@pkteerium.xyz)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 19:08:33 JST
FourOh-LLC
Christ did not write down anything, despite the fact that he was highly literate.
He did not "build" Temples and Churches, He did not create a "written code".
The great secrets about and around the Life of Jesus was too much to bear, soon people were building Churches and doing the same things Jesus advised not to do.
Every institution built by man is flawed, the best we can hope for is that they serve their purpose - more or less.
The Roman Catholic Church is one of those institutions plenty flawed. -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 19:43:36 JST
NEETzsche
@FourOh-LLC I think it's important that we have an organized religion, but my devotion to any particular church isn't as slavish as they probably want. I kind of view it this way: it's legitimate, until it isn't.
As for scripture, the canon we now call the "Bible" was cherry picked, reconstructed, edited, and otherwise altered in who knows how many ways. Around 350 AD, not long after the first council was really formed, they banned all "heretical" writings. A lot of scriptures were lost this way, and many more were edited to fit their agenda. The Gnostic texts come to mind, which were lost for nearly two millennia before being rediscovered by a fluke.
Who knows what else is lost.
@opphunter88 -
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FourOh-LLC (fouroh-llc@pkteerium.xyz)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 19:43:38 JST
FourOh-LLC
My point is exactly.
I gave up on Churches a long time ago, and I "follow Jesus" alone. I cannot accept the fact that on the main street where I live there are different "churches" for Catholics, Evangelicals and a half dozen other "nominations".
Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that "Christianity" is still alive in the West. But there is just too much religion, dogma and ceremony for something so simple as Faith and Hope.NEETzsche likes this. -
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FourOh-LLC (fouroh-llc@pkteerium.xyz)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 19:48:04 JST
FourOh-LLC
Just look at Islam to realize the disaster what the "Church", the "Religion" and the "Institution" may become. NEETzsche likes this. -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 19:48:52 JST
NEETzsche
@FourOh-LLC He's already arguing that this very human institution is the gateway between man and God. It's preposterous and sacrilegious.
@opphunter88 -
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FourOh-LLC (fouroh-llc@pkteerium.xyz)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 19:54:33 JST
FourOh-LLC
Lucifer also has a Church, and worshipers indeed. NEETzsche likes this. -
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Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 30-Aug-2023 19:54:35 JST
Microchimera
@FourOh-LLC @NEETzsche Islam is not the Church.
The Church was founded by Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Islam was founded by demons.
They are not even comparable. -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 03:07:30 JST
NEETzsche
Odd, considering we’re told faith alone does not suffice.
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LCCMV (lccmv@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 03:07:31 JST 
LCCMV
@FourOh-LLC @opphunter88 @NEETzsche
"Faith and Hope," you say.
You don't mention Action. That is telling.
Christians talk a lot about Faith and Hope, always implying that one should not do anything because God will, because the Lord works in mysterious ways.
That is why Christianity is doomed. There was plenty of action when it flourished. Without the action, it's fading fast.
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 03:09:34 JST
NEETzsche
What ecumenical councils editing all your scriptures for centuries does to a mfer. 😔
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Caek Islove ? ❤️ (caekislove@gleasonator.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 03:09:35 JST
Caek Islove ? ❤️
@NEETzsche @lccmv @opphunter88 @FourOh-LLC Basically true, but um it's complicated. 😂 -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 03:35:00 JST
NEETzsche
Taking down the Internet would be the stupidest thing they could possibly do. Suddenly, everybody has to touch grass again for social interaction, and there’s no more reason to carry around your personal tracking device.
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LCCMV (lccmv@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 03:35:01 JST
LCCMV
@caekislove @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC
That global communications network will be shut down any minute. I'm surprised by how long it's taking to happen.
And when it does, remember: THAT is action. THAT is why they won.
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Caek Islove ? ❤️ (caekislove@gleasonator.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 03:35:02 JST
Caek Islove ? ❤️
@lccmv @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC What actions do you propose that Christians are currently not taking? Conversion by the sword? It's not necessary when we have a global communications network where we can just talk to people and convert them. Should Christians behave more like the Bible commands us to? Of course, but that's a process and our role as part of the faithful is to encourage that. -
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Caek Islove ? ❤️ (caekislove@gleasonator.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 03:35:03 JST
Caek Islove ? ❤️
@lccmv @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC Yet it's still the #1 religion in the world and it's not even close. There must be something there people find more compelling than the alternatives. -
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LCCMV (lccmv@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 03:35:03 JST
LCCMV
@caekislove @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC
You're drinking kool-aid. The action of 1% can beat the inaction of 99%. It's happening as we type.
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LCCMV (lccmv@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 03:35:04 JST
LCCMV
@caekislove @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC
I pick the current century of course, when Christianity has been a faith that has been aggressively dis-propagated with little to no resistance.
That was already very visible in the last century.
The only things that still push people to Christianity are family and degeneracy. Degeneracy has been so rampant and scary that it actually pushes people towards Christianity, in a holy-shit kind of way.
That is far from enough.
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Caek Islove ? ❤️ (caekislove@gleasonator.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 03:35:05 JST
Caek Islove ? ❤️
@lccmv @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC Pick whichever century you want me to pick for the sake of your argument and continue if you have a particular point you want to make.
>(Note: one fifth of the current century is gone already.)
AND WE DON'T EVEN HAVE FLYING CARS -
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Caek Islove ? ❤️ (caekislove@gleasonator.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 03:35:06 JST
Caek Islove ? ❤️
@lccmv @FourOh-LLC @opphunter88 @NEETzsche >implying
That word is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. Historically, and arguably even today, Christianity has been a faith that has aggressively propagated itself and promoted its values in whatever societies it was present in. -
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LCCMV (lccmv@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 03:35:06 JST
LCCMV
@caekislove @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC
When you say "Historically," what centuries exactly are your referring to?
(Note: one fifth of the current century is gone already.)
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 03:37:38 JST
NEETzsche
Rightoids in general, not just Christians, are still too comfortable for the kind of action you’re suggesting. That comes later, when their kids haven’t eaten in a couple days.
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Caek Islove ? ❤️ (caekislove@gleasonator.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 03:37:39 JST
Caek Islove ? ❤️
@lccmv @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC You didn't answer my question. What do you want us to do? -
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LCCMV (lccmv@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 03:37:39 JST
LCCMV
@caekislove @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC
There is nothing I can tell you that the left hasn't been demonstrating every day.
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 03:45:17 JST
NEETzsche
Well, “winning.” Most of Christendom is entirely fallen. Catholicism, Lutheranism, they’re all fag churches. LDS hasn’t fallen entirely but it’s flirting with it by trying to appease fags with “we’ll support gay marriage in secular life if you leave us alone.” LDS is the best option in this respect, which is the real moral test of the century, but I’m not entirely satisfied with the answer. They get a C.
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Caek Islove ? ❤️ (caekislove@gleasonator.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 03:45:18 JST
Caek Islove ? ❤️
@lccmv @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC You mean "using the devil's tools to accomplish God's work"? I already gave you an example of how we're doing that with the internet. Also, conversion efforts in meatspace haven't been suspended, either. Some sects make a big deal about it, others don't. My point is we're not doing stuff like ramming airliners into office buildings, because we have no reason to when we're winning. -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 03:52:12 JST
NEETzsche
Well, yeah. There’s also the issue of forced conversions. Christianity won’t succeed in forced conversion at scale because it’s too disparate. If opphunter88 tried to force me to convert to Lutheran faggotism I’d hard reject it. I’d tell him to fuck off and if it escalated to violence I’d kill him. I bet he’d flip the fuck out if I tried to forcibly convert him to LDS, too, even though as far as the serious moral tests of the century are concerned my denomination is less flawed.
And to be clear, I wouldn’t blame him. Robbing people of free will is just cause to go on the warpath, and he’s suggesting exactly that because he thinks his e-ministry vindicates him.
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Caek Islove ? ❤️ (caekislove@gleasonator.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 03:52:13 JST
Caek Islove ? ❤️
@NEETzsche @opphunter88 @lccmv @FourOh-LLC I was comparing it with the religious alternatives. Islam's days are clearly numbered and will freefall when the oil runs out. Hinduism and Buddhism are pagan garbage and also in decline. The rest aren't even a blip on radar.
Are most human beings effectively atheist? Yes, but that's been true for all of human history. -
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LCCMV (lccmv@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 03:59:14 JST
LCCMV
@NEETzsche @caekislove @opphunter88 @FourOh-LLC
NEETzsche: right on every count, but tyranny is inevitable. Impose yours or live under someone else's. There isn't a third way. Not with humans.
Christians insist on talking and acting like hippies.
They will go extinct because of that and quite ironically, Darwin would have very little but plenty enough to say on the matter. -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 03:59:14 JST
NEETzsche
Partly correct. Unified movements are better at making decisive and fast action, but they’re also susceptible to single point of failure issues. Kill the King, and the empire falls. But diffuse movements are slower to move, and harder to route out permanently. With Christianity, there’s only one King, and it’s hotly debated what He is even really about internally. There’s no unification except on certain handful of topics.
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Caek Islove ? ❤️ (caekislove@gleasonator.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:01:57 JST
Caek Islove ? ❤️
@NEETzsche @opphunter88 @lccmv @FourOh-LLC In my opinion, Christian sectarianism is a feature, not a bug. It's why we don't NEED to convert by the sword, whereas Islam does. -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:01:57 JST
NEETzsche
Yeah and modern sectarianism seems limited to calling each other apostate/heretic/etc on the computer. “X aren’t REAL Christians” type talk. And then when you get into why it’s abstruse theological disputes and scriptural arguments about things that don’t matter on the ground floor like “we demand to eunuch your boys and make them wear wigs,” which basically none of us agree with.
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Caek Islove ? ❤️ (caekislove@gleasonator.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:04:35 JST
Caek Islove ? ❤️
@lccmv @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC Saudi Arabia is running out of oil TODAY. Every year, their slice of the overall energy pie will get smaller and smaller.
https://archive.is/PkDpC -
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LCCMV (lccmv@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:04:36 JST
LCCMV
@caekislove @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC
Here we go again.
When you say "when the oil runs out," what century are you referring to?
Pick any one after the 31st.
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:05:00 JST
NEETzsche
Jews are a much greater threat than Muslims. Jews are extremely effective subverters and in this iteration they’re making a global subversive ploy which may or may not work in the West. We’re only going to find out gradually over the next 50 or so years, too.
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LCCMV (lccmv@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:05:01 JST
LCCMV
@caekislove @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC
Strength is relative. If your opponents are weak, then you are strong. Game over.
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Caek Islove ? ❤️ (caekislove@gleasonator.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:05:02 JST
Caek Islove ? ❤️
@lccmv @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC Now you're just grasping at straws. Islam would have to GET strong first. Murdering civilians because your geopolitical power is too pathetic to wage real war isn't a sign of strength. -
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LCCMV (lccmv@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:05:03 JST
LCCMV
@caekislove @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC
You can trust Saudi Arabia's numbers as much as China's. Oil will never end. We'll sooner have some technology that will make it obsolete, and I mean real deal, not Greta-mongered bullshit. But even then, Islam will still be strong.
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:08:52 JST
NEETzsche
>They have complete control. They won.
Then log off and enjoy your goyslop while you still have it. Don't know what to tell you if you really believe this. -
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LCCMV (lccmv@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:08:53 JST
LCCMV
@NEETzsche @caekislove @opphunter88 @FourOh-LLC
Wrong time frame. It has worked already and we can see it today.
"Kill the King, and the empire falls."
They have taken all positions of power and their media even turns many of us against ourselves. They have complete control. They won.
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:12:01 JST
NEETzsche
No normal person actually cares about things like the “real presence” in the Eucharist or about Trinitarianism vs Triunism and the fact that I know about any of this kind of shit at all is a sign that I have some kind of high functioning autism. Here’s what normal people actually care about:
- Is my church a fag church?
- Do my tithes go to sending Bibles to 60 IQ Africans?
- Can my church produce aesthetic architecture?
And your church is a fag church that uses its tithes to send Bibles to 60 IQ Africans and the absolute state of American Protestant architecture isn’t good and hasn’t been for well over a century.
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Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:12:02 JST
Microchimera
@caekislove @NEETzsche @lccmv @FourOh-LLC If it was just a decentralized church and the doctrine was all solid, I would agree. We can have catholicity of faith without explicit communion in all cases, but a lot of these denominations don’t even believe in the real presence in the Eucharist; the center of all Christian worship. So I can’t really cosign division as a feature.
Neet is seething because he thinks everyone can be a spiritual Redditor like him, but that’s not how it works. If the hierarchy enforces something, as long as it’s not damaging the productive class, people are just going to go along with it. Animals naturally submit to hierarchy, and people are no different in this respect. -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:21:52 JST
NEETzsche
>losing the debate so hard that he has to mute me and have elaborate fantasies about top-down religious persecution to 40k church music as a coping mechanism -
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Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:21:53 JST
Microchimera
@caekislove @NEETzsche @lccmv @FourOh-LLC If you do that, you’ll never have an orthodox Christian nation. I really do want things to be done how they were under Byzantine rule. -
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Caek Islove ? ❤️ (caekislove@gleasonator.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:21:54 JST
Caek Islove ? ❤️
@opphunter88 @NEETzsche @lccmv @FourOh-LLC If you have a problem with the theology of another Christian sect then go find one of them and argue with them. This ain't a religion for intellectual weaklings. -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:33:57 JST
NEETzsche
No that’s actually just mismanagement. They desperately want those cities to remain centers of power because it’s how they exert themselves into the countryside. However, these cities swirling down the toilet means they’re failing, not succeeding. The more fucked up those places get, the better it is for us.
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LCCMV (lccmv@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:33:58 JST
LCCMV
@caekislove @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC
The American cities I pointed out are pilot projects, not the fully realized goal.
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LCCMV (lccmv@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:33:59 JST
LCCMV
@caekislove @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC
Not sure what you mean by "moving the goalposts." I'm not saying that Islamabad will improve. I'm saying that the living standard of the West will plummet very, very far.
It's part of the plan. They enemy knows they can never match us. It's far beyond their abilities. Their only option is destroying what we have, and destroying is not hard. Even they can do it.
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Caek Islove ? ❤️ (caekislove@gleasonator.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:33:59 JST
Caek Islove ? ❤️
@lccmv @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC Hold up, there. You previously said they were "strong" and now you're agreeing with me that they're shitty, but we're gonna be shittier after some unspecified timeframe. That's moving the goalposts, Son.
I mean, you used as an example the absolute worst cities in America and I used as an example one of the best cities in the Islamic world and we both agree that right here, right now, our worst is better than their best.
Will Portland be shitty forever? Maybe, maybe not. New York was once so bad they made sci-fi movies about escaping it. Then, in the 90's just a few terms of broken windows policing made it nice again. -
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Caek Islove ? ❤️ (caekislove@gleasonator.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:34:00 JST
Caek Islove ? ❤️
@lccmv @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC 😂 -
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Caek Islove ? ❤️ (caekislove@gleasonator.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:34:00 JST
Caek Islove ? ❤️
@lccmv @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC You've moved the goalposts so far, it's not even in the same city, much less the same ballpark! -
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LCCMV (lccmv@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:34:01 JST
LCCMV
@caekislove @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC
Yet. It's a work in progress. You will crave living in Islamabad one day.
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Caek Islove ? ❤️ (caekislove@gleasonator.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:34:02 JST
Caek Islove ? ❤️
@lccmv @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC Again, look at the map. The notion that the countries in green are strong and will conquer the weak countries in blue in the imaginable future is preposterous. Those are some of the poorest, most corrupt, most backwater states on the planet. Placing a bet on magenta or orange would even make more sense, as India and China have economies not dependent on one product. -
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LCCMV (lccmv@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:34:02 JST
LCCMV
@caekislove @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC
"Those are some of the poorest, most corrupt, most backwater states on the planet,"
compared to what? Detroit? San Francisco? Portland?
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Caek Islove ? ❤️ (caekislove@gleasonator.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:34:02 JST
Caek Islove ? ❤️
@lccmv @opphunter88 @NEETzsche @FourOh-LLC Yes. Absolutely. As shitty as Portland is, it's paradise compared to Islamabad. -
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NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:49:28 JST
NEETzsche
San Fran probably won’t actually start solving any of their problems. They’ve got a couple more double downs left in ‘em.
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Caek Islove ? ❤️ (caekislove@gleasonator.com)'s status on Thursday, 31-Aug-2023 04:49:29 JST
Caek Islove ? ❤️
@NEETzsche @lccmv @opphunter88 @FourOh-LLC Yeah it doesn't take a conspiracy theory for people to suck at running the government. Even hyper-liberal San Francisco is slowly inching towards throwing the bums* out.
*figuratively and literally
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