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  1. Embed this notice
    Forbidding Blocks █ █ █ (ember@www.librepunk.club)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 21:28:43 JST Forbidding Blocks █ █ █ Forbidding Blocks █ █ █

    transmasc - someone whose identity has become more masculine after overcoming social pressure to be feminine

    transfem - someone whose identity has become more feminine after overcoming social pressure to be masculine

    crucially, these definitions are broad enough that:

    • a trans person coerced into a male identity at birth, whose transition let them safely experiment with masculinity is transmasc
    • femboys can be transfem
    • a gay cis male bottom who unlearns the idea that male bottoms must act femininely is transmasc

    this shift in definition not only unshackles us from our coerced sex, it also lets us interrogate more ways that gender norms are imposed on us

    if this makes you uncomfortable, try to figure out what part of people you actually want to talk about. if it turns out that you just want to talk about birth sex, that may be worth interogating.

    In conversation Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 21:28:43 JST from librepunk.club permalink
    • Embed this notice
      novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 21:28:40 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️
      in reply to
      • Tristan Lánstad

      @DesasterTristan @ember the word trans may not make those distinctions, but at least it makes the distinction concerning your assigned gender being different from your real one, and I don't think it being imperfect in other ways means we should erase that, which is what the original post was suggesting. Plus, an additional harm that the original post's definitions would commit is that they conflate gender presentation and performance with gender identity, in that they want to count a cis man who starts presenting and acting more masculine as the same as someone who transitions to a more masculine gender identity. Plus it simply doesn't take into account things like, for instance, trans masc femboys — if the words are just meant to refer to performance and presentation then that makes those transmascs "transfem actually" which is FUCKED. UP. :(

      I think it's okay to recognize the similarity in the struggles between people who change their presentation and performance in a certain direction and people who transition in that same direction, but I don't think that makes them the same thing, or that we should broaden a term that is usefully used to talk about a specific experience with your gender identity being different from the one you were assigned in order to encompass both. I really don't see what the eagerness is to do that.

      In conversation Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 21:28:40 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Tristan Lánstad (desastertristan@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 21:28:41 JST Tristan Lánstad Tristan Lánstad
      in reply to
      • novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

      @anarchopunk_girl @ember Trans, trans masc and trans fem make no distinction already to wether someone for example medically or socially transitioned, even when the assigned agab does not match the real one, which is for many a big source of struggle.
      I don't have a good answer or solution for that and as I said I see where you are coming from.

      In conversation Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 21:28:41 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 21:28:42 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️
      in reply to

      @ember "if this makes you uncomfortable, try to figure out what part of people you actually want to talk about.  if it turns out that you just want to talk about birth sex, that may be worth interogating."

      I think this is a very underhanded and disingenuous rhetorical move. You're trying to imply there's something wrong with even implicitly acknowledging gender assigned at birth in some contexts, because it is relevant to what most of us mean when we talk about trans issues, trans people, and trans experience (or would you remove the vocabulary to discuss such things?), and creates unique and specific struggles and experiences that it is useful to have a word to talk about, with being some kind of bioessentialist or something that thinks someone's coerced sex is the only important thing about them. That's what it seems like you're trying to imply by going from "if you don't like the fact that I removed actually having a different AGAB than your gender identity from the idea of being trans" to "all you want to talk about is people's birth sex."

      That's an utter crock of fucking shit. This definition is deeply problematic, and it does make me a bit concerned, but that's not because "ALL I want to talk about is people's birth sex." I don't have to think someone's AGAB is relevant whatsoever in most contexts, to think that in the specific context of discussing trans experience the fact that someone's AGAB was *different* than their actual gender is sometimes relevant. When we use the usual definition of transness, crucially, we aren't focusing on someone's AGAB itself, but their current gender and the fact that it is different than what they were assigned. That's why it's completely and utterly wrong to say that words like transmasc and transfem are just euphemisms for AGAB — you're leaving out all the most emphasized parts of them, the components that fucking make up the words for chrissake, to focus on something else, because you want to push your poorly thought through redefinition. Yes, the words implicitly acknowledge what someone's AGAB might be, but that's not the important part for the discussion, it's the fact that they overcame their AGAB to be who they are now.

      Also, yes, people who overcome the social pressure to experience or express gender in one way in order to do that another way often share experiences with trans people, but there's still a difference between a cis person and a trans person in the context of our experiences of gender, and it's useful to have vocabulary to refer to that.

      If you want to make "trans" just literally mean "gender nonconforming" then we'll have to invent a new word to mean "trans" and the cycle starts again. At bottom, I understand the inclination to try to remove all reference to AGAB from everything, but sometimes the fact is relevant to our lived experiences and histories.

      And anyway, with these definitions they're still defined in terms of initial social control and imposition, so ultimately they have the same problem as the problem you had with the current definition of being trans. "If it turns out you just want to talk about what society thought people should express their gender like, that may be worth interrogating."

      To completely eliminate that, you'd have to just make "transmasc" mean "masc" and "transfem" mean "fem," and again, to some of us, the fact that our AGAB was different from our gender is relevant sometimes, so we would still need a word for that so we could explain it.

      In conversation Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 21:28:42 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      Tristan Lánstad (desastertristan@mastodon.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 21:28:42 JST Tristan Lánstad Tristan Lánstad
      in reply to
      • novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

      @anarchopunk_girl @ember I think you are right to point that out and there are some very crucial points in there. I think trans is a big umbrella term and nuances get lost when we can't talk about what crucial differences there can be. But in fact the current trans term is already lacking this distinction.

      In conversation Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 21:28:42 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      undead enby of the apocalypse (enby_of_the_apocalypse@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 21:46:19 JST undead enby of the apocalypse undead enby of the apocalypse
      in reply to
      • novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️
      • Tristan Lánstad

      @ember @DesasterTristan @anarchopunk_girl while I’m generally on the fence about these definitions I think you’re making a good point with the “transmasc femboys” example here… although there are some trans people who feel like transmasc also feels fitting despite having transitioned in a way that is commonly considered “transfem” and the other way around. I feel like transmasc and transfem being not necessarily tied to agab is a good idea, but I’m not sure if these definitions are good. Overall I think it depends on what you identify as more than which definitions you technically fall under.

      In conversation Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 21:46:19 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 23:21:11 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️
      in reply to
      • undead enby of the apocalypse
      • Tristan Lánstad

      @enby_of_the_apocalypse @ember @DesasterTristan "I feel like transmasc and transfem being not necessarily tied to agab is a good idea." This is the core of what I fundamentally disagree with. Trans* labels are a very important thing to have to describe the experience of being assigned a gender different than your actual gender, and trying to remove the assigned gender component of that means that the terms would necessarily have to become about *gender expression* instead of *gender identity*, which is what it seems like you and the original poster want to do, and it would also erase a really crucial term to be able to communicate the experience of trans people. Thus, if we got rid of the meaning of being trans being linked to assigned gender then we just have to invent an entirely new word to describe the experience of having an assigned gender that's different from your actual identity, because there is still a difference between gender identity and gender expression, and so I don't really see how that helps. Like I don't know how I can reiterate hard enough that trying to remove the assigned gender component of the trans labels just reduces them to gender expression because then you can't talk about that change in gender identity anymore. I think something better would be to try to create a new term that includes all people who change their gender expression to be more feminine, and a term that includes all people that change their gender expression to be more masculine, which could serve the purpose you're looking for without being problematic.

      In conversation Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 23:21:11 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (anarchopunk_girl@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 23:25:30 JST novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️
      in reply to
      • undead enby of the apocalypse
      • Tristan Lánstad

      @enby_of_the_apocalypse @ember @DesasterTristan like to clarify I think a gender fluid person whose identity goes from a feminine-aligned one to a masculine aligned one could totally use the word trans masc or transfem if vice versa of they want, but the key is that it's about a change in identity not just a change in expression.

      In conversation Sunday, 30-Jul-2023 23:25:30 JST permalink
    • Embed this notice
      undead enby of the apocalypse (enby_of_the_apocalypse@kolektiva.social)'s status on Monday, 31-Jul-2023 00:32:59 JST undead enby of the apocalypse undead enby of the apocalypse
      in reply to
      • novatorine 🏴🏳️‍⚧️
      • Tristan Lánstad

      @ember @DesasterTristan @anarchopunk_girl I’m definitely not just talking about expression. And the two can’t easily be separated, since for a lot of people their gender expression and the way they feel about it is both informed by their gender and a way through which they get to know their gender better. For example “long hair but in a masculine way” might be a gender expression thing, but it for some reason feels very tied to my gender for me, and if I didn’t have long hair but in a masculine way I would probably be dysphoric about it.

      Also for a lot of trans people, the transfem/transmasc labels have always kind of been about expression because they describe the way they transition. There are many different ways people see and use these labels, and I guess it’s hard to pin it down to something more specific than “masculinity-femininity in a trans way”

      In conversation Monday, 31-Jul-2023 00:32:59 JST permalink

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