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@teknomunk @BowsacNoodle @sickburnbro @jeffcliff @skylar The reason I say battery, is because, a decade ago, the best solar panel factory in the world, was boasting they'd finally produce a panel with slightly less energy, than it would produce over its life time. The thing is, the process of material purification purification is extremely expensive. I doubt their panel was a net gain then, and I certainly don't think the slap dash factors of the chines are producing panels any more efficiently than the Germans were.
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The arc itself will be pretty efficient, but in the same way the resistance heating is efficient. >90% of the electricity will be converted to heat, but the heat-to-electricity step before that is at best 60% and probably closer to 30% efficient once you take things like transmission losses into account.
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@hazlin @teknomunk @BowsacNoodle @jeffcliff @skylar yeah, look how you get silicon that is pure enough for solar cells. Electric Arc Furnances are pretty neat, but well, "arc" isn't very energy effficent
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@sickburnbro @hazlin @BowsacNoodle @jeffcliff @skylar
This is also something I have against heat pumps when compared to a gas furnace for heating. The gas furnace is 80-90% thermally efficient. That is the amount of energy in the fuel that makes it into the space or water being heated, with the remainder ending up in the exhaust gases and vented outside as waste.
The heat pump is touted as being vastly better because it is 300% efficient, but ignores that electricity generation is typically 30% and at best 60% efficient. At 30% efficiency generating efficiency the heat pump has to be 266% efficient to match that 80% "inefficient" gas heater when you don't ignore generating efficiencies.
Photovoltaic solar is about 10-20% efficient, while wind and hydro are 80%+ efficient because they don't count the thermal cycle that creates wind and rain, but it's still there, safely out of sight.
For comparison, a typical coefficient of performance for a heat pump looks to be 2-3 (200-300%).
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@teknomunk @hazlin @BowsacNoodle @jeffcliff @skylar I was actually talking about this earlier this year, in reference to the "new" refrigerants that require higher psi to function. I haven't been able to spend the time to figure it out, but I have this nagging feeling that when you add up all the costs of running these systems they aren't more efficient, but simply allow them to curtail people's energy usage more because "we had to switch to this for the ozone"
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@teknomunk @hazlin @BowsacNoodle @jeffcliff @skylar for anyone that has inflated tires, the example I use is "it's easy to go from 0-10psi, but 30-45 takes like 4x as long"
so you would have to measure in terms of cooling achieved by psi of output from compressor.
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@teknomunk @hazlin @BowsacNoodle @jeffcliff @skylar a heat pump is a hard system to measure fully since it has so many moving parts and variables due to interior and exterior temperature.
That's why I was hoping to isolate the compressor itself, so there is less room to muddy the waters
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@teknomunk @hazlin @BowsacNoodle @jeffcliff @skylar a system without a txv will come to equilibrium after not running, so then the compressor has to run first to establish all high pressure on the high side, and that depends on how much refrigerant in the system, etc etc
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@sickburnbro @hazlin @BowsacNoodle @jeffcliff @skylar There are scientific was of measuring efficiency that don't allow cheating and that are easily verifiable. Power meter on the unit and a calorimeter to accurately measure the heat moved, then you calculate heat moved/power used.
But if you don't do that, it doesn't get in the way of regligiously-motivated dictatorial proclamations. :talulah_tired:
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@sickburnbro @hazlin @BowsacNoodle @jeffcliff @skylar All the heat rise in the compressor running will come from one of two places in a heat pump system: the environment from which the pump is pulling heat or from the electricity dissipated to run the pump. Everything else I can think of will reduce the temperature of the compressor (heat dissipation to the environment).
As long as you accurately determine the system boundary, measuring is reasonably straightforward.
I also know the political types are either incapable or unwilling to have this done correctly, because it won't give them the numbers they are looking for.
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@teknomunk @hazlin @BowsacNoodle @jeffcliff @skylar there is also temperature into the system from the running of the compressor. And so as you run it more the duty cycle will increase and all the internal parts will become hotter.
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@sickburnbro @hazlin @BowsacNoodle @jeffcliff @skylar True, but there are only two inputs to the system: temperature from the air or ground that is pumped into the controlled space and electricity to run the compressor and other components of the system, and one output (heat in the cooled/heated space). If you measure those accurately, you can treat the complex heat pump system as a black box with equivalent input/output and safely ignore the internals.
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@sickburnbro @teknomunk @hazlin @BowsacNoodle @jeffcliff @skylar I'm always stumped as to how "ozone" is depleted when in fact it is constantly replenished by massive influx of exosphere radiation and solar detritus. I'm more inclined to believe and can likely find some kind of proof CFCs are merely really fucking bad halogen pollutants that they wanted to steer people from studying and uncovering as a massive worldwide scandal. Just saying that it's way to convenient to invent ozone depletion than have yet another DDT, Dioxin, lead tailings sort of disaster being focused on.
As for my take on geothermal through merely heat pumping and or maybe deep heat scavenging. I approve of these developments, we took advantage of these things with underground homes for some time, both passive and actively managed.
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@Whitewall_Blasphemy @teknomunk @hazlin @BowsacNoodle @jeffcliff @skylar I always have found the excuse that CFCs were to blame for the ozone layer "depletion" a bit too slapdash, and given the bald faced lies that have been done in all other kinds of environmental science from the 60s onward, the fact that the molecules are heavier than air and they "got up there by turbulence" just seems like a bunch of bullshit.
I say this with me hating fluoride A LOT; but the simple fact is that those systems leaked less, ran at lower psi and in general were less complex for the same gain.
They actually developed CFCs in the 40s or 50s *specifically* to meet certain goals and stuff like r600a is an old refrigerant which was shelved do to the fact that it's oh .. flammable.
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And then there are refrigerants like r-113 which just turn into phosgene gas when they burn
Thankfully we've switched mostly to freon which just turns into hydrochloric acid if you breathe in the smoke when it burns
Refrigerators terrify me
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@shaunh But it is easier to install and you can pull the electricity for it from the individual units so the apartment owner isn't paying for any of it!
:akko_angry:
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@teknomunk Yeah I forgot about that. If builders were forced to hire competent contractors to install the units instead of illiterate wetbacks it would be another shoah.
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It pisses me off every time I look at the roof of an apartment that was built in the last twenty years and see a hundred individual air source heat pumps.
They probably could have reduced everybody's electric bill by a third by installing a glycol loop and water source heat pumps but that would require the investors and contractors to actually give a shit about the people will live in the buildings.
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@shaunh @hazlin @BowsacNoodle @sickburnbro @jeffcliff @skylar Quite so. Thermodynamics is a bitch that way.
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@teknomunk @hazlin @BowsacNoodle @sickburnbro @jeffcliff @skylar The typical COP for a heat pump is calculated at a pretty modest temperature differential and it's only accurate at that operating point.
The greater the difference between the outside temperature and the temperature you're trying to maintain inside the worse the COP gets which means in extreme conditions when you need them they most are the worst conditions for them in terms of energy efficiency.
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@shaunh @teknomunk I've never understood putting AC units on the roof, the hottest part of the building already and in an unshaded area. I know space becomes a premium, but I think using even a single side wall area with some type of partial enclosure would be better just from the ∆T factor alone.
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@BowsacNoodle @shaunh @teknomunk The condenser for AC is generally put on the roof because it makes the duct work easier to install.
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@HarryNuggets @shaunh @teknomunk I know there's issues with them, but don't ductless units sort of fix a lot of these issues (even if new ones are introduced)? Air is a poor conductor of heat, so I never understood heating with it. Cooling makes sense since low humidity moving air is the biggest thing.
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