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   Radical_EgoCom (radical_egocom@kolektiva.social)'s status on Monday, 24-Jul-2023 10:50:01 JST Radical_EgoCom

   "What is Communist Anarchism?", by Alexander Berkman
   https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/alexander-berkman-what-is-communist-anarchism

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     Radical_EgoCom (radical_egocom@kolektiva.social)'s status on Monday, 24-Jul-2023 10:49:59 JST Radical_EgoCom

     in reply to

     • Lawrence London

     @avantgeared I do support the Ukrainians and believe they should be provided with protection from the Russians, and I have heard of Nestor Makhno.

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     Lawrence London (avantgeared@universeodon.com)'s status on Monday, 24-Jul-2023 10:50:00 JST Lawrence London

     in reply to

     @Radical_EgoCom
     1)
     Do you support Ukraine and Ukrainians and providing them with weapons to drive Russian out of all Ukrainian territory. Do you believe that the Russians carried out an illegal, unprovoked invasion of Ukraine during which they caused considerable destruction, loss of life and committed atrocities. They have stated that they want to eliminate all Ukrainians.
     2)
     Have you ever heard of Nestor Makhno? He was an anarchist who lived in Ukraine and Russia and defended the people there from Stalin's Red Army, particularly the peasants and kulak farmers, whom Stalin hated. Which side were the Bolsheviks on? 🙂 Makhno was a true hero.

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     Radical_EgoCom (radical_egocom@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:40:50 JST Radical_EgoCom

     in reply to

     • Oli
     • Lawrence London

     @OliverNoble @avantgeared Chine did lift many out of poverty and brought literacy to the country that preciously was predominantly illiterate, but all that could have been done without a totalitarian/authoritarian government murdering innocent people, imprisoning them, and forcing them into work camps.

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     Oli (olivernoble@mastodon.world)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:40:51 JST Oli

     in reply to

     • Lawrence London

     @avantgeared @Radical_EgoCom I dont have a dog in this idealogical spat

     But "look at china"..
     China has lifted a billion people out of poverty in a few decades - compare that with india or south africa or anywhere else

     China is also authoritarian, and intolerant and brutal towards dissenters especially from some minorities ...but to suggest that the chinese system has been *only* harmful to its people is simplistic

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     Lawrence London (avantgeared@universeodon.com)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:40:52 JST Lawrence London

     in reply to

     @Radical_EgoCom
     Why all the anti capitalism, pro commie, cutesy anarchism buzzwords when you know none of that helps people survive and carry on normal lives. Why drive well-intentioned people to such ideological extremes. Look at what the Chinese and Russians have done to good people in the name of socialism and communism with the ccp forcing such things as "Party as God and Xi Jinping his messenger" on all Chinese. Don't forget what they have done to the Tibetans and the Uighurs. Replace your anti capitalism, anarchism and communism with PERMACULTURE. Take a look at that.

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     Radical_EgoCom (radical_egocom@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:40:55 JST Radical_EgoCom

     in reply to

     • Lawrence London

     @avantgeared You don't seem to understand that I'm an Anarcho-Communist, not an Authoritarianism Communist. The crimes of the countries that you listed have nothing to do with my ideology. If you'd actually read even the first chapter of the book that your comment is linked to you'd know this. I implore you to actually read the book above, as it perfectly explains what is wrong with your comment.

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     Anarcho-Daddy (rubixhelix@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:40:55 JST Anarcho-Daddy

     in reply to

     • Lawrence London

     @Radical_EgoCom @avantgeared pretty sure berkman would agree we can have permaculture AND anarchism at the same time, he might even point out that a feature of the capitalist system is to attempt to create intra-class conflict, but you know thats just speculation 😂

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     MMR Nmd (mmrnmd@todon.eu)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:40:58 JST MMR Nmd

     in reply to

     • Lawrence London

     @Radical_EgoCom
     It's like trying to play chess with a pigeon. I've been trying to argue and discuss about anarchomunism and communism for the past 20years, and after all that, people still answer things like "staline" "goulag" "ukraine"...I am so fed up with this that nowadays, I do NOT argue anymore.

     People are so shaped by 70 years of US hegemony and anticommunism, you just can't compete.

     @avantgeared

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     Ⓐnarchiasl (anarchiasl@todon.eu)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:08 JST Ⓐnarchiasl

     in reply to

     • FinalOverdrive
     • Lawrence London
     • Biorreactivo

     @FinalOverdrive
     They claimed to have build a transitional phase to communism which they coined socialism. Or they claim that state control of the means of production is the same as workers' control over them.
     Either way: they were state-capitalists and what they where building towards was nothing but state capitalism.
     @avantgeared @precariousmind @Radical_EgoCom

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     FinalOverdrive (finaloverdrive@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:09 JST FinalOverdrive

     in reply to

     • Lawrence London
     • Biorreactivo
     • Ⓐnarchiasl

     @anarchiasl @avantgeared @precariousmind @Radical_EgoCom They never even claimed to have achieved socialism. Just to be building socialism.

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     Ⓐnarchiasl (anarchiasl@todon.eu)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:10 JST Ⓐnarchiasl

     in reply to

     • Lawrence London
     • Biorreactivo

     @avantgeared
     I would advise you to actually learn what communism and socialism actually mean.

     Communism describes a classless, moneyless, stateless society.
     Socialism means that the workers who work the means of production (that means gardens, too) own those means of production as well.

     No state has actually achieved socialism. Not the USSR, not China, not Cuba or any other. Just because they claimed they have doesn't mean they actually did.

     As someone else already tooted: You will probably be very interested in the works of Murray Bookchin.

     Alternatively, I can recommend this certified anarcho-communist permaculture efficionado: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN__G2hSqRKuqedN3M0JCDg
     @precariousmind @Radical_EgoCom

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     Lawrence London (avantgeared@universeodon.com)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:11 JST Lawrence London

     in reply to

     • Biorreactivo

     @precariousmind @Radical_EgoCom
     I am not interested in communism other than by using elements of it and socialism in Permaculture designs and in the systems created using those design. There is a lot to say about that and a lot of value. I oppose any pure communist or socialist government.

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     Biorreactivo (precariousmind@paquita.masto.host)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:12 JST Biorreactivo

     in reply to

     • Lawrence London

     @avantgeared @Radical_EgoCom ok, you don't understand what communism is, and a loosely biased understanding of history.

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     Lawrence London (avantgeared@universeodon.com)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:13 JST Lawrence London

     in reply to

     @Radical_EgoCom
     Have a debate between "anarcho-communism" and Permaculture. You are years too late pushing anarcho communism. Decades ago when the permaculture movement was beginning to evolve it would have been interesting to consider. Communism is communism.
     Anyway, I am a product of the freewheeling, freethinking Sixtiesand you have got my interest about your politics. All I can do is go with what I think anarcho communism is. There are connections to Permaculture. For me anarchism or communism is not the system I would want a government to be run by. I like the idea of elements of socialist system to be integrated into Permaculture design and the resulting systems it produces. I have lots of ideas about this. I will take a closer look at your resources. Meanwhile why don;t you do some research on Permaculture. For an anarcho communist to exclude Permaculture would render their ideas and proposals null and void. Stay tuned.
     LL

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     steev hise (detritus@todon.eu)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:17 JST steev hise

     in reply to

     • Lawrence London
     • Biorreactivo

     @avantgeared @precariousmind @Radical_EgoCom but it’s not an entire thing like communism or capitalism or anarchism. It could theoretically be compatible with anything. You could have fascist permaculture or neoliberal permaculture or whatever. It’s like comparing the color of your refrigerator to the architecture of a whole house.

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     Lawrence London (avantgeared@universeodon.com)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:18 JST Lawrence London

     in reply to

     • steev hise
     • Biorreactivo

     @detritus @precariousmind @Radical_EgoCom
     Permaculture is not _just_ a gardening system. Learn what it actually is. Volumes online to browse through. It adds considerably to any political agenda. Since it is about how prople feed, take care of themselves and survive it is important that it be included in any political platform. I would like to see a presedential cabinet with a position filled by a permaculture expert just as you have farmers and environmentalists on the board of the USDA organic certification board. Important to do this because the government already represents the interests of a broad range of communities, all vital to the functioning of a healthy nation.

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     steev hise (detritus@todon.eu)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:19 JST steev hise

     in reply to

     • Lawrence London
     • Biorreactivo

     @avantgeared @precariousmind @Radical_EgoCom umm. permaculture is just a gardening method, not a political system. Apples and oranges.

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     Log 🪵 (log@mastodon.sdf.org)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:21 JST Log 🪵

     in reply to

     • TransitBiker

     @Radical_EgoCom @TransitBiker It's not really anarchism unless a bunch of anarchists have argued that it's never going to work and we should really try it *this* way instead.

     "Nonsense". That's amateur. I expect a 15 page essay full of quotes from Proudhon, Bakunin, George, Marx, Von Mises, and lets just throw some Time Cube in there for fun. You have *no idea* how this game is played, and it is an utter embarrassment.

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     Radical_EgoCom (radical_egocom@kolektiva.social)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:22 JST Radical_EgoCom

     in reply to

     • TransitBiker

     @TransitBiker What's nonsense?

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     TransitBiker (transitbiker@urbanists.social)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:23 JST TransitBiker

     in reply to

     @Radical_EgoCom nonsense.

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     GhostOnTheHalfShell (ghostonthehalfshell@masto.ai)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:24 JST GhostOnTheHalfShell

     in reply to

     • David Benfell, Ph.D.
     • 🔶Mark Nicoll 3.5%🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🇬🇧🇪🇺🇺🇳

     @Benfell @duckwhistle @Radical_EgoCom

     My main critique of Marx is his notion of teleological history, that a capitalist collapse would lead to something better. Well it did collapse (if you stick to the IMF pillars of capitalism; today’s economy is not capitalist) it became the platform “feudalism” of today. Here Yanis Varoufakis et alia have a point.

     Enclosure seems to capture it. We’re all on their manorial (financial) estates.

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     David Benfell, Ph.D. (benfell@hcommons.social)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:25 JST David Benfell, Ph.D.

     in reply to

     • GhostOnTheHalfShell
     • 🔶Mark Nicoll 3.5%🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🇬🇧🇪🇺🇺🇳

     @GhostOnTheHalfShell @duckwhistle @Radical_EgoCom

     Properly understood, communism cannot be authoritarian. As Emma Goldman explains in https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/emma-goldman-there-is-no-communism-in-russia , communism is egalitarian. We might disagree with Karl Marx about means to the end, but we agree on the end, which is why, for all the suffering that resulted from his ideas, I'm inclined to allow him a little grace--I think he meant well, and by the time we had the proof that Michael Bakunin was right, it was too late.

     Accordingly, I label these regimes "authoritarian socialist," specifically to distinguish from libertarian socialism, which along with anarchism, recognizes that both political and economic power over others is a problem (anarchists would say it's illegitimate).

     As to democracy, I'm not clear on why we even still talk about it. You ask, "Are the people doing the work deciding who, what, how much and why?" In any country I'm aware of, the answer is flatly no--the rich and powerful make those decisions.

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     GhostOnTheHalfShell (ghostonthehalfshell@masto.ai)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:26 JST GhostOnTheHalfShell

     in reply to

     • David Benfell, Ph.D.
     • 🔶Mark Nicoll 3.5%🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🇬🇧🇪🇺🇺🇳

     @Benfell @duckwhistle @Radical_EgoCom Agree, there isn’t any pure system.

     I gravitate to an authoritarian v democratic axis. What are the social power relations between say work or gov and the people?

     Are the people doing the work deciding who, what, how much and why? If the answer is no, then toss it into the authoritarian bin. Exploitation will follow. State capitalist kinda runs aground of definitions like saying authoritarian communist state. Oxymoron anyone?

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     David Benfell, Ph.D. (benfell@hcommons.social)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:28 JST David Benfell, Ph.D.

     in reply to

     • GhostOnTheHalfShell
     • 🔶Mark Nicoll 3.5%🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🇬🇧🇪🇺🇺🇳

     @GhostOnTheHalfShell @duckwhistle @Radical_EgoCom

     I'm going to have to bow out on how the Soviet Union or various People's Republics should be categorized.

     A part of the issue is that there is no pure system. Authoritarian socialist regimes had or have capitalist elements. Capitalist regimes have socialist elements.

     So while I can see the argument that so-called "communist" regimes were in fact "state capitalist," I can neither endorse nor refute it. Ultimately, it hinges on how much of each you can have to categorize as either, and I haven't the first idea how to decide that.

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     David Benfell, Ph.D. (benfell@hcommons.social)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:29 JST David Benfell, Ph.D.

     in reply to

     • 🔶Mark Nicoll 3.5%🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🇬🇧🇪🇺🇺🇳

     @duckwhistle @Radical_EgoCom

     Except that when you say 'communism,' most people think of authoritarian socialism, so no, it doesn't actually help with understanding.

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     GhostOnTheHalfShell (ghostonthehalfshell@masto.ai)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:29 JST GhostOnTheHalfShell

     in reply to

     • David Benfell, Ph.D.
     • 🔶Mark Nicoll 3.5%🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🇬🇧🇪🇺🇺🇳

     @Benfell @duckwhistle @Radical_EgoCom

     I’d go a step further wrt to USSR or China, they are state capitalist. At no time do the people control their destiny

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     🔶Mark Nicoll 3.5%🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🇬🇧🇪🇺🇺🇳 (duckwhistle@mastodon.org.uk)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:30 JST 🔶Mark Nicoll 3.5%🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🇬🇧🇪🇺🇺🇳

     in reply to

     • David Benfell, Ph.D.

     @Benfell @Radical_EgoCom well, yes and no.
     Common perception of anarchy is that it means no social structure whatsoever. So whilst it's technically redundant,it's also a necessary qualifier to aid understanding.

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     David Benfell, Ph.D. (benfell@hcommons.social)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:31 JST David Benfell, Ph.D.

     in reply to

     @Radical_EgoCom

     "Communist anarchism?"

     Um, that's redundant. The other things claiming to be anarchist flatly aren't.

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     David Benfell, Ph.D. (benfell@hcommons.social)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:39 JST David Benfell, Ph.D.

     in reply to

     • GhostOnTheHalfShell
     • 🔶Mark Nicoll 3.5%🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🇬🇧🇪🇺🇺🇳

     @GhostOnTheHalfShell @duckwhistle @Radical_EgoCom

     1/2 The ethic was clearly different in the 1950s and 1960s. Corporate executives were more likely to recognize a duty to what we would now call "stakeholders," referring to employees and customers, as well as to shareholders.

     Then came neoliberalism. Milton Friedman came along and preached that their sole duty was to shareholders. And this is apparently now at least a quasi-legal requirement.

     There are so-called "B-corps," which I have not looked into and distrust on the same level with "carbon credits" (which I also haven't looked into). But supposedly, these recognize a duty to workers, customers, shareholders, and the environment.

     What I saw, when looking into, the so-called "Theory X"-"Theory Y" management style dichotomy, were a few things:

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     GhostOnTheHalfShell (ghostonthehalfshell@masto.ai)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:40 JST GhostOnTheHalfShell

     in reply to

     • David Benfell, Ph.D.
     • 🔶Mark Nicoll 3.5%🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🇬🇧🇪🇺🇺🇳

     @Benfell @duckwhistle @Radical_EgoCom

     Both of us are old enough to remember the US before Neutron Jack. Company cultures varied and lacked neoliberalism or at least it didn’t dominate. SEARs etc

     shit changes.

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     GhostOnTheHalfShell (ghostonthehalfshell@masto.ai)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:41 JST GhostOnTheHalfShell

     in reply to

     • David Benfell, Ph.D.
     • 🔶Mark Nicoll 3.5%🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🇬🇧🇪🇺🇺🇳

     @Benfell @duckwhistle @Radical_EgoCom

     Yet there are levels to it, right? Russia v Holland might be a good extreme contrast in tone.

     And perhaps obsessing just over gov is bad. How do companies operate? Compare mittelstrand to a U.S. corp or Mondragon or Ace Hardware (it’s a co-op, IIRC).

     What variety and distribution? The there were the communes of the 60s which I think wound down on their own.

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     GhostOnTheHalfShell (ghostonthehalfshell@masto.ai)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:42 JST GhostOnTheHalfShell

     in reply to

     • David Benfell, Ph.D.
     • 🔶Mark Nicoll 3.5%🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🇬🇧🇪🇺🇺🇳

     @Benfell @duckwhistle @Radical_EgoCom

     true. co-op might be consumer or worker or maybe both. Mondragon remains an the largest well known example, as are thousands of co-ops large and small.

     Democracy@Work Richard Wolff’s organization promotes co-ops. One mainstay activity are mom and pop operations where the owners want to retire but not sell rather turn it over to their staff. This is good stuff.

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     David Benfell, Ph.D. (benfell@hcommons.social)'s status on Friday, 04-Aug-2023 15:41:43 JST David Benfell, Ph.D.

     in reply to

     • GhostOnTheHalfShell
     • 🔶Mark Nicoll 3.5%🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🇬🇧🇪🇺🇺🇳

     @GhostOnTheHalfShell @duckwhistle @Radical_EgoCom

     Don't know what happened to the communes of the 1960s and it's been a while since I heard what happened to Israeli kibbutzim, but I very faintly recall that capitalism had something to do with it.

     When we speak of co-ops, I think we may need to be more specific.

     Sure, that co-op I joined in Erie is open to the public--anyone can join.

     But a bunch of independent car wash operators joined forces in Pittsburgh to meet competition from a couple chains moving in--I don't know how they structured their merger, but it occurs to me they might have formed a co-op with a somewhat higher price of admission (for one thing, you'd need a qualifying car wash).

     Then there are co-ops in real estate, a step beyond subdivisions or "plans," but I'm failing to remember the nuances.

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     João Pinheiro (joaopinheiro@libranet.de)'s status on Tuesday, 22-Aug-2023 03:13:19 JST João Pinheiro

     in reply to

     • Tarmo Amer

     @tarmoamer

     No, it's not that simple! You'll have to read many more pages to be able to understand that True Freedom comes with loads of responsibilities! And my Freedom can't be more important than yours, nor the other way around.

     @Radical_EgoCom

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     Tarmo Amer (tarmoamer@est.social)'s status on Tuesday, 22-Aug-2023 03:13:29 JST Tarmo Amer

     in reply to

     @Radical_EgoCom So, basically, what you dudes dream about is having all the rights an no obligations?