John Conway
I've been thinking about the lack of algorithmic* feeds in the #Fediverse and wondering how much that is hurting growth and retention. Big social media spend billions on getting and keeping eyeballs, and algorithmic timelines are a huge part of that.
I think it's right to avoid it, but I worry that will just forever stunt growth. The alternative is human curators, I think, but I have no idea how to make that happen.
*Yes, I know reverse chronological is an algorithm, algo-pedants.
silverwizard
silverwizard
hypolite
silverwizard
hypolite
wakest ⁂
@hypolite @john I think it might be useful to have more nuance in the terms we use here. One type of growth that I think is important is people being able to keep their *social graph* and that requires a certain *critical mass*
I moved to the fediverse full time and tried for years to bring people here from facebook and the #1 complaint I got was "you are the only one I know that uses it"
a large portion of people use social media to interact with already existing friends not make new ones.
silverwizard
John Conway
@mike I'm thinking more of a "StumbleUpon for the fediverse", rather than a "silently alter your feed based on feedback you didn't even realise you were giving".
Mike Taylor 🦕
@john Fair point. Whatever I am, I'm not typical.
John Conway
@mike You have strong interests and intent. A lot of people just don't, they use social media for light entertainment, and that's fine by me.
Mike Taylor 🦕
@john I'm not sure what recommendations would get me that searches didn't. But I have no argument against it being tried so long as it's strictly opt-in.
John Conway
@mike I'd like to see search and a recommendation engine API of some sort. The engine would have to be _very_ carefully built though.
Mike Taylor 🦕
@john I am certainly 100% in agreement that discovery is very poor.
I think the answer to that is search, but we've already discussed the short-sighted cultural factors that have so far prevented this.
John Conway
@mike Algorithmic timelines are actually two things mashed together:
1. A filter, prioritising the most popular posts from the people you follow, which is meant to keep the entertainment value high
2. A recommendation engine, which is meant to aid in discovery
We can probably do without the first. The second gets to the huge discoverability problem on Mastodon. People don't know who to follow or how to find stuff that's interesting to them, and they often give up.
Mike Taylor 🦕
@john What, other than algorithmic timelines, would be competitive?
Also: why would algorithmic timelines delivery you more potential-customer eyeballs than chronological timelines?
John Conway
@mike Yes, Facebook added a specific mechanism for it (because Facebook was trying to be an everything app).
I'm not sure where in this conversation everyone got the idea that I was arguing that algorithmic timelines are a great idea – I explicitly say the opposite in the first post – my point is that Mastodon competes with big social networks, and algorithmic timelines are a competitive advantage for many, many people.
We need to give them something competitive.
Mike Taylor 🦕
@john Interesting. And yet Mastodon is explicitly non-algorithmic. And Facebook's weirdly named concept of "pages" are explicitly asymmetric for just this reason.
John Conway
@mike I don't agree that treating it something like a broadcast medium is a mistake. Twitter and Mastodon are *explicitly* asymmetric to allow this, unlike Facebook where the relationships are symmetric.
Mike Taylor 🦕
@john OK, you're talking here about a broadcast medium?
(Nothing wrong with wanting that, of course; but I think it's a mistake to want THIS to be THAT.)
John Conway
@mike Support an audience that leads to Patreon conversions, book sales, commissions, etc. It's mercenary, but there you are, it's how we make a living.
Mike Taylor 🦕
@john To small for the palaeoart community to *what*? I'm seeing more actual communication between you guys here than I ever did on Twitter.
John Conway
@mike Yea, I'm hoping its a slump after and period of false growth, and real organic growth will return. The truth is though that the Fediverse is just too small for the palaeoart community for example. Growth is needed.
Mike Taylor 🦕
@john That's fine: it's tourists who joined in the initial burst, and never really engaged. They're free to go.
John Conway
@mike Mastodon is currently shrinking, according to metrics I have.
Mike Taylor 🦕
@john What you call stunted growth, I call organic growth. People come because someone recommends it, stay because they see things they like, don't leave because it's not toxic. This is all good. Slower growth gives time for server admins to scale up and find funding strategies. Exponential growth gets you where you want to be soon enough, even for a small exponent.
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