@Pyrrho @mischievoustomato @mmmfeet @shedinja

> Putin's Russia wanted to rebuild the USSR from day one, and you don't rebuild an ideological empire the second time sans the ideology.

I don't think it's accurate to say that he wanted to rebuild the ideological empire. Regaining superpower status and cultural influence, sure; no one wants their country to slip into "rogue state with nukes" territory.

At any rate, it's kind of pointless to argue what Putin wants deep down. He's doing what he wants, it's easier to just look at that. I don't like what he wants but this is very different from deciding that this means picking a fight with him is a good idea.

> Every ex-USSR country to join NATO was better off for it.

Military ties don't come without economic ties. Every country that is getting the "Belt and Road" cash is better for it. This has nothing to do with whether it is a good idea to pick a fight with Russia.

> Giving the corrupt shithole that is Ukraine, to Russia, is a massive L for the west, not even considering the actual humans that live there and deserve, like all human begins, unironically, to live in freedom, or at least a freer place than Putin's Russia.

Everyone affixing moral language to geopolitics is wrong about geopolitics. Geopolitical issues are fundamentally amoral: the moral pleas only enter with propaganda, which is designed to get the broader populace to beat the war drum

I would like very much for everyone to be free. This is different from levying a tax to pay for a war conducted with the ostensible purpose of making them free. See also: all of our overseas adventurism since the beginning of this country. We "freed" Germany from Hitler only to hand half of it to the Soviets and the other half to the CIA.

> I could go on all day about American imperialiam, our damaged political systems, failing middle class, etc, but we don't have to be perfect to be better than a mobsterstate.

Who says Russia's wonderful? I say we are poking Russia on a regular basis and that this is not helpful to do, and that I don't think we ought to participate in that war. It doesn't matter that I say this, because we're doing it anyway. I don't know what point you're arguing against, but I don't think it's any point I made.