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   Charliebrownau (charliebrownau@pieville.net)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 12:07:00 JST Charliebrownau

   • Furgar

   @furgar I dont miss that anymore

   Linux is such a better operating system

   You can CHOOSE when to update and setup LAN or online update servers outside the 'provided' by default setup

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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 12:06:59 JST 寮

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     • Furgar
     @charliebrownau @furgar
     I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX. Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called “Linux,” and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project. There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use.
     
     Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called “Linux” distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux.
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     Charliebrownau (charliebrownau@pieville.net)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 12:44:32 JST Charliebrownau

     in reply to

     • 寮
     • Furgar

     @ryo @furgar

     I dont care

     Its Linux
     Most people know it as Linux

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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 12:45:04 JST 寮

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     • Furgar
     @charliebrownau @furgar It reminded me to Stallman-san's legendary quote, which is why I copypasta'd it.
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     Charliebrownau (charliebrownau@pieville.net)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 12:47:22 JST Charliebrownau

     in reply to

     • Token
     • Furgar

     @coin @furgar

     I dont recommend or use ((( corporation ))) distros

     ((( ubuntu)))
     ((( Fedora/commiehat)))
     etc

     To Sheeple I recommend Debian

     Myself I use Devuan

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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 12:47:22 JST 寮

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     • Token
     • Furgar
     @charliebrownau @coin @furgar I'd rather recommend Devuan over Debian even for the normies.
     Perhaps the only reason why you'd want to use Debian over Devuan is if you have a server side application that offers a SoystemD script, and you have no idea how to make your own script for SysV, OpenRC, Runit, S6, or whatever else (and it's really not that hard at all).
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     Token (coin@asimon.org)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 12:47:23 JST Token

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     • Furgar
     @charliebrownau @furgar @charliebrownau @furgar you got that shit on Fedora if you update offline.
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     Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 12:48:01 JST Terminal Autism

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     • 寮
     • Furgar
     @ryo @charliebrownau @furgar "I use Linux as my operating system," I state proudly to the unkempt, bearded man. He swivels around in his desk chair with a devilish gleam in his eyes, ready to mansplain with extreme precision. "Actually", he says with a grin, "Linux is just the kernel. You use GNU+Linux!' I don't miss a beat and reply with a smirk, "I use Alpine, a distro that doesn't include the GNU Coreutils, or any other GNU code. It's Linux, but it's not GNU+Linux." The smile quickly drops from the man's face. His body begins convulsing and he foams at the mouth and drops to the floor with a sickly thud. As he writhes around he screams "I-IT WAS COMPILED WITH GCC! THAT MEANS IT'S STILL GNU!" Coolly, I reply "If windows were compiled with GCC, would that make it GNU?" I interrupt his response with "-and work is being made on the kernel to make it more compiler-agnostic. Even if you were correct, you won't be for long." With a sickly wheeze, the last of the man's life is ejected from his body. He lies on the floor, cold and limp. I've womansplained him to death.
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     Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 12:50:21 JST Terminal Autism

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     • 寮
     • Furgar
     @ryo @charliebrownau @furgar No, Richard, it's 'Linux', not 'GNU/Linux'. The most important contributions that the FSF made to Linux were the creation of the GPL and the GCC compiler. Those are fine and inspired products. GCC is a monumental achievement and has earned you, RMS, and the Free Software Foundation countless kudos and much appreciation.
     
     Following are some reasons for you to mull over, including some already answered in your FAQ.
     
     One guy, Linus Torvalds, used GCC to make his operating system (yes, Linux is an OS -- more on this later). He named it 'Linux' with a little help from his friends. Why doesn't he call it GNU/Linux? Because he wrote it, with more help from his friends, not you. You named your stuff, I named my stuff -- including the software I wrote using GCC -- and Linus named his stuff. The proper name is Linux because Linus Torvalds says so. Linus has spoken. Accept his authority. To do otherwise is to become a nag. You don't want to be known as a nag, do you?
     
     (An operating system) != (a distribution). Linux is an operating system. By my definition, an operating system is that software which provides and limits access to hardware resources on a computer. That definition applies whereever you see Linux in use. However, Linux is usually distributed with a collection of utilities and applications to make it easily configurable as a desktop system, a server, a development box, or a graphics workstation, or whatever the user needs. In such a configuration, we have a Linux (based) distribution. Therein lies your strongest argument for the unwieldy title 'GNU/Linux' (when said bundled software is largely from the FSF). Go bug the distribution makers on that one. Take your beef to Red Hat, Mandrake, and Slackware. At least there you have an argument. Linux alone is an operating system that can be used in various applications without any GNU software whatsoever. Embedded applications come to mind as an obvious example.
     
     Next, even if we limit the GNU/Linux title to the GNU-based Linux distributions, we run into another obvious problem. XFree86 may well be more important to a particular Linux installation than the sum of all the GNU contributions. More properly, shouldn't the distribution be called XFree86/Linux? Or, at a minimum, XFree86/GNU/Linux? Of course, it would be rather arbitrary to draw the line there when many other fine contributions go unlisted. Yes, I know you've heard this one before. Get used to it. You'll keep hearing it until you can cleanly counter it.
     
     You seem to like the lines-of-code metric. There are many lines of GNU code in a typical Linux distribution. You seem to suggest that (more LOC) == (more important). However, I submit to you that raw LOC numbers do not directly correlate with importance. I would suggest that clock cycles spent on code is a better metric. For example, if my system spends 90% of its time executing XFree86 code, XFree86 is probably the single most important collection of code on my system. Even if I loaded ten times as many lines of useless bloatware on my system and I never excuted that bloatware, it certainly isn't more important code than XFree86. Obviously, this metric isn't perfect either, but LOC really, really sucks. Please refrain from using it ever again in supporting any argument.
     
     Last, I'd like to point out that we Linux and GNU users shouldn't be fighting among ourselves over naming other people's software. But what the heck, I'm in a bad mood now. I think I'm feeling sufficiently obnoxious to make the point that GCC is so very famous and, yes, so very useful only because Linux was developed. In a show of proper respect and gratitude, shouldn't you and everyone refer to GCC as 'the Linux compiler'? Or at least, 'Linux GCC'? Seriously, where would your masterpiece be without Linux? Languishing with the HURD?
     
     If there is a moral buried in this rant, maybe it is this:
     
     Be grateful for your abilities and your incredible success and your considerable fame. Continue to use that success and fame for good, not evil. Also, be especially grateful for Linux' huge contribution to that success. You, RMS, the Free Software Foundation, and GNU software have reached their current high profiles largely on the back of Linux. You have changed the world. Now, go forth and don't be a nag.
     
     Thanks for listening.
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 12:52:55 JST 寮

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     • Furgar
     • Terminal Autism
     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @furgar GNU core utilities are bloated though.
     Anyone can rewrite the same utilities in far fewer lines of code, and still be POSIX compliant.
     Both FreeBSD and OpenBSD did it, maybe Suckless did it too? Dunno, didn't check.
     But out of the bigger 3 (GNU, FreeBSD, and OpenBSD), OpenBSD is by far the most lightweight.
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 13:15:48 JST 寮

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     • Token
     • Furgar
     • Terminal Autism
     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @coin @furgar I think your Debian/Devuan installation got fucked up then, I've used locale-gen on both Debian 11 and Devuan 4 thousands of times.
     Or hell, Mobian Bookworm (PinePhone) even ships with locale-gen, and Mobian is literally just Debian with Phosh as the desktop environment.
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     Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 13:15:49 JST Terminal Autism

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     • 寮
     • Token
     • Furgar
     @ryo @charliebrownau @coin @furgar Devuan is just Debian but better. But it still suffers from Debian retardation. For instance, how do I generate locales on Devuan? I don't know how to do it anymore, because where the fuck is locale-gen? Debian removed the tool that does it, and presumably replaced it with systemd for no reason, and like they are trying to taunt the user, they didn't change the documentation. The man page for locale-gen is still even there. Meanwhile, Devuan doesn't have it either because they just did exactly what Debian did, so how the fuck do you do it? And of course, it still has most systemd components, but that's almost all of them.
     
     There are no usable Linux distributions, they are all shit. The closest to good is Arch. It has systemd. Also, it's a rolling-release distribution, so updating is a pain, especially if you build a few packages by getting PKGBUILDs with asp and then editing them, and then building with makepkg, and don't want to be redoing that all the time because it takes for fucking ever.
     
     Anyway, I tried to look up a distribution to recommend to beginners, because I can't recommend a BSD for them, the hardware compatibility is not ideal, and they are just not made for people that don't know what they're doing. All the "beginner" distributions suck. I considered Devuan, and just making a tutorial to go with the recommendation, but again, I don't even know how to do basic shit anymore because they kept removing all the basic tools over the years. And even if I figure it out and teach it, it will be different in every other distribution.
     
     One that I considered as well was antiX, but what was the first thing that I saw when I opened their website? "Proudly anti-fascist", which means "proudly Antifa" in clownworldspeak. How can I recommend that? People will be turned off immediately. So, what the fuck do I do when people ask for recomendations? I read reviews of all the major ones and saw really fucked up shit in all of them, and the ones that don't have that problem are either not for beginners or at all, or are Devuan.
     
     Maybe my answer at this point should be "just use Windows, it's all fucked". Or to just tell them to pirate and run fucking ArcaOS, the currently active distribution of OS/2, and the successor of eComStation. I see no option other than Windows or some business OS from the fucking 90s with some security through obscurity.
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 13:23:13 JST 寮

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     • Terminal Autism
     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @coin @furgar I think Void Linux might be close to ideal to beginners.
     Easy installation, not bleeding edge, rolling release, similar to BSD while still using the Linux kernel, lightweight, and so on.
     Just write a few GUI frontends, and it should be fine.
     
     Note that I said "beginners" instead of "normies".
     Beginner = uses computers because he's genuinely interested in learning and understanding.
     Normie = uses computers just because they have to, then they found some cool stuff online, and demand computers to be adjusted to their tiny braincells, fucking it all up for everyone.
     
     Normies should be better off just playing ball outside or some shit.
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     Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 13:24:25 JST Terminal Autism

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     • Furgar
     @ryo @charliebrownau @furgar None of the BSDs ever used the GNU core utils. They are all rewrites of the original BSD utilities. And on Linux, the most common alternative is busybox. Alpine uses it, and there are a few very small distributions that are anti-GNU and don't use anything GNU at all. And I thing there is a portable version of the Plan 9 core utils as well. Anyway, I don't care very much. Generally, if you're using shell scripting for speed, you're doing something wrong.
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 13:24:25 JST 寮

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     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @furgar
     > None of the BSDs ever used the GNU core utils. They are all rewrites of the original BSD utilities.
     
     Thanks for repeating what I've just said.
     Also, shell scripting isn't meant for speed, it's meant for automation.
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     御園はくい (hakui@tuusin.misono-ya.info)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 13:44:04 JST 御園はくい

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     • Token
     • Furgar
     • Terminal Autism
     @ryo @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @coin @furgar rolling release likes to break things i heard
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 13:44:04 JST 寮

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     • 御園はくい
     • Token
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     • Terminal Autism
     @hakui @coin @furgar @charliebrownau @TerminalAutism Rather, most developers these days don't know how to code properly, so they use dependencies upon dependencies upon dependencies upon dependencies upon dependencies upon dependencies upon dependencies upon dependencies etc, and they won't even statically compile/link them neither, so all it takes is for 1 of the billions of dependencies to get updated, and the entire application stops working altogether.
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     Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 13:45:52 JST Terminal Autism

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     • Furgar
     @ryo @charliebrownau @coin @furgar Well, if my installations got fucked up for no reason a dozen times, then that makes them look even worse as far as I'm concerned. Aren't you using an old installation that you just upgraded? Because if you are, then it may still be there from a previous version.
     
     Hell, here it is, proof of both. A fresh systemd+Devuan-systemd_init VM. And an older systemd/Debian VM.
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 13:45:52 JST 寮

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     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @coin @furgar
     > Aren't you using an old installation that you just upgraded?
     
     A few old servers and the PinePhone? Yes.
     More recent servers? No.
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     Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 13:47:42 JST Terminal Autism

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     @ryo @charliebrownau @furgar
     "Anyone can rewrite the same utilities in far fewer lines of code"
     "Both FreeBSD and OpenBSD did it"
     I interpreted that as "they rewrote GNU in fewer lines of code".
     
     "GNU core utilities are bloated though"
     The downside of them being bloated that I heard the post about is speed, which is why I talked about speed. Portability is another issue, but most of the other utils have their own unique options as well, so you have to go out of your way to use POSIX, in all of its horribleness, if you want the portability (though in the case of shells, extended shells are no better, holy shit are bash scripts awful). But they should be faster. And more secure, I guess.
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 13:50:49 JST 寮

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     • Terminal Autism
     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @furgar Portability is the big reason.
     You could use a script like this ( https://gitler.moe/TechnicalSuwako/detect-os/src/branch/master/.local/bin/getsystem ) to detect the right OS and distro (currently limited to Linux, FreeBSD, and OpenBSD only though), but it's always nicer to have your scripts more streamlined rather than having to spam it all with "if on Linux and Artix, do this, else if on OpenBaSeD, do this, else if on FreeBSD, do this" all over the place.
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     Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 14:28:29 JST Terminal Autism

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     @ryo @charliebrownau @coin @furgar Well, then if locale-gen is in your systems and not mine, then maybe that means than Debian and its variants are cursed and especially designed to fuck with me. Maybe they know that I'm the one installing and think "Oh, it's that guy again. Fuck that guy. Let's do everything we can do make his day worse.", and then the installer doesn't install basic fucking shit that should be in every system. Those are not the only VMs either. And I remember that in Devuan 2.0, it worked just fine. I skipped from 2 to 4 because fuck updates, so I don't know about 3.
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     Udon (udon@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 14:28:29 JST Udon

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     • Terminal Autism
     @TerminalAutism @ryo @charliebrownau @coin @furgar
     You probably need to run it as root.
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     Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 15:04:54 JST Terminal Autism

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     @ryo @charliebrownau @furgar I just use POSIX. And I run checkbashisms on things when I'm not sure. Using actual programming languages for scripting also works for portability, though... at least if you use languages that don't change all the time and that are incompatible between this week's version and last week's version. Generally Perl was used for that role. A lot of OpenBSD stuff is written in Perl, from what I know. Makes sense, because it's an old language for people that hate change, and it works well with text. I guess you could also use Common Lisp for that, people were able to run some really old shit in that. And it can be compiled as well, including JIT. Perl is the traditional option, though.
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 15:04:54 JST 寮

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     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @furgar It actually boggles my mind to why OpenBSD chose Perl over C though.
     Perl makes pkg_* so fucking slow (at least it's not as bad as Debian's apt)...
     Arch and FreeBSD both used C for pacman and pkg respectively as far as I know.
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 15:08:04 JST 寮

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     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @furgar C is a language that doesn't change at all.
     And if it does, they mark it as a new standard altogether (like C89, C99, C11, C20.......), while GCC and the other C compilers continue to be able to compile old code.
     
     But when it comes to portability, a statically compiled C or C++ program is always best.
     If you really want to go hardcore, learn ASSembly, and the dozens of different architectures you'll have to write for separately.
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 15:11:03 JST 寮

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     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @coin @furgar Which ISO do you use then?
     I mean, server, netinstall, desktop, minimal.....
     And do you hook it up to ethernet before and during installation?
     And which boxes do you check near the end of the installation (I usually only check SSH, because if I install Devuan or Debian, I'm installing a server most of the time)?
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     Charliebrownau (charliebrownau@pieville.net)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 15:11:39 JST Charliebrownau

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     @TerminalAutism @coin @furgar @ryo

     I used arch
     I learned to hate the 'latest' update

     Tired Artix
     Tired Endeavor OS
     ended up on Devuan

     Probly will just end up going to OpenBSD at this rate

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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 15:16:55 JST 寮

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     @charliebrownau @TerminalAutism @coin @furgar The one thing about Artix that bothers me is that their official websoyte is Cuckflared.
     But apart from that, I don't really have any issues with it.
     Though my plan right now is to buy up a couple of old ThinkPads (everything with the old IBM keyboard) from a junk store, repair them, and install different Linux distro's or BSD variants on each different model.
     Most are going to be just for development and/or testing purposes though.
     I might also get a 2008 model or older MacBook Pro, repair it, and run FreeBSD on it (OS X is based Darwin which is based on NextStep which is based on FreeBSD which is based on 4.4 BSD Lite2 which is based on Unix, so I think it fits).
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     Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 15:18:52 JST Terminal Autism

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     @udon @charliebrownau @coin @furgar @ryo
     Okay, so, everyone reading this should try this just to see how fucking retarded this is. Actually, you're right locale-gen is there, it's not Debian or Devuan at all, it's because of a universal, absolutely fucktarded problem with it, that also makes it not work with doas.
     
     For some ungodly reason locale-gen only works with sudo, just like visudo (you need to be root AND still use sudo to even fucking set up sudo, which is also retarded). You can look at the pictures, I was root, after using su, and even being root, it doesn't work without sudo. Why did I use su? Because I couldn't get doas to work in the Debian VM, and the Devuan VM is so fresh I didn't bother setting up sudo. I use doas in all of my systems, but in the Debian VM, with the exact same configuration, it just doesn't work and I have no idea why, so I tend to just run su in one terminal and use that, and then I don't have to keep typing the password or set up persistence in sudo.
     
     Now, I just got doas working in the Devuan VM (maybe they had the same issue as Debian before, but it's fixed, keep in mind that the Debian VM is a little behind, I think). It works. But guess fucking what? You can't use locale-gen with doas either! IT HAS TO BE SUDO. Even as fucking root! Who designed this abomination?!
     
     You can tell that I don't install new systems very often these days. I have been using doas for a couple years and only noticed that right now.
     
     Anyway, to use locale-gen, you HAVE to install sudo. Except in the system I'm using to type this, I don't have sudo, and it works. It could be because sudo is a symbolic link to doas? Actually, I just tested it, and the answer is no. It doesn't work on Devuan even that way! So, this doesn't work on Debian-based distributions for some reason.
     
     WHY?!
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     Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 15:21:30 JST Terminal Autism

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     @ryo @charliebrownau @coin @furgar Mystery solved in the other post. And the answer is really fucking stupid. https://yewtu.be/watch?v=hYm7DQPTS2g
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 15:21:30 JST 寮

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     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @coin @furgar Yea, I read that.
     It's just that when I use a Debian-based distro, I'm running as sudo without even thinking about it, much as how I use doas under FreeBSD and OpenBSD without thinking (had to separately install it on the former however), and don't use "sudo" at all on Artix when using pacman and just run "yay" instead.
     
     But indeed, having to run "locale-gen" combined with "sudo" is absolutely retarded.
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     Udon (udon@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 15:28:46 JST Udon

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     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @coin @furgar @ryo
     Oh, you're right, doas doesn't work. Not even they mentioned that.
     https://wiki.debian.org/Doas
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     Udon (udon@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 15:34:34 JST Udon

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     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @coin @furgar @ryo
     Or run with the full path: /usr/sbin/locale-gen.
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     Charliebrownau (charliebrownau@pieville.net)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 16:16:05 JST Charliebrownau

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     @ryo @coin @furgar @TerminalAutism

     Devuan for Me
     Debian for Sheeple
     Debian for servers
     FreeNAS for file servers
     Pfsense or openwrt for routers

     I was considering converting Debian servers into OpenBSD

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     Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 16:19:39 JST Terminal Autism

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     @ryo @charliebrownau @coin @furgar And visudo, that's even more retarded, but I already knew that one. You need to use sudo to set up sudo. That on its own is already retarded. You have to be root anyway, to set it up, because you don't have it yet. Why the fuck do you have to use sudo to become root when you're already root?
     
     Arch (and all the variants) is also very retarded when it comes to that, because of makepkg and the AUR helpers, that all run sudo on their own. That can be solved with linking, though, so it's fine. Of course, you should just be able to do sudo makepkg, but nothing can be designed in a sane way on Linux. Kinda hard to recommend doas to beginners because they will just be more confused, even though it's definitely easier to use.
     
     Also, why the hell does it say that a command wasn't found when it needs sudo and you don't use it? The command fucking exists. It's misleading. It should say that you don't have permission to run the command. That's yet another horrible design choice that has always pissed me off. I legitimately just assumed that they replaced locale-gen with some new systemd feature, because that's what they do with everything. WHERE IS MY IFCONFIG?! Okay, enough ranting, or I won't sleep today. My goal is to eventually go full BSD anyway, I only don't because my files are stored in Ext4 and Btrfs drives.
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 16:19:39 JST 寮

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     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @coin @furgar
     > WHERE IS MY IFCONFIG?!
     
     Most Linux distro's replaced it with "ip".
     So "ip a" basically gives you the same stuff as if you'd be running "ifconfig".
     Why? I don't know.
     They just stopped shipping ifconfig a couple years ago.
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     Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 16:21:57 JST Terminal Autism

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     @udon @charliebrownau @coin @furgar @ryo That reminds me that in Devuan, you have (by default) to run reboot and poweroff with their full paths. That's retarded too. In Debian, on the other hand, it has to be done with systemctl, just to rub systemd in your face a little more, I guess. May seem like a minor issue, but it's very annoying when you don't know and expect them to work like every other distribution, as they should.
     
     Anyway, if I make a tutorial (very likely, so I can use it as an answer to questions like "what distribution should I use?" or "how do I learn Linux?"), it will probably use Devuan, and I'll have to mention that. Hell, I'll have to mention that even more so to intermediary users if I recommend it to them, they are the ones that possibly won't even have a menu with a poweroff button.
     
     May seem weird to use Devuan for that, but for real, I couldn't find a "beginner" distribution (with a desktop environment and a software center) that didn't look like a train wreck. So it will just be Devuan and I guess Synaptic does the job of a graphical installer, so it's fine, and I don't even have to make a GUI version of my package management script.
     
     It helps that I have used Devuan a lot in the past. I think when I first used it, it was still in 1.0? Very reliable, which is what I wanted for this, primarily, along with not requiring a lot of knowledge to start using. Back in the day, maybe Mint would have worked, but apparently it does spontaneously implode for some people sometimes, and it's also full of ridiculously slow flatpak software. It will just give people a bad impression if I recommend it at this point, and demotivate them. And it would have to be specifically not the Cinnamon version because Cinnamon sucks ass compared to pretty much anything that isn't GNOME or KDE (KDE specifically because it seems to be unstable, and I heard it has telemetry too, which I don't trust). Devuan has plenty of options all in one ISO, though, so it's great.
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 16:21:57 JST 寮

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     @TerminalAutism @udon @charliebrownau @coin @furgar "sudo reboot" or "(sudo) shutdown -r now" for reboot, and "(sudo) shutdown -h now" for poweroff.
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 16:26:02 JST 寮

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     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @coin @furgar @udon Also, Cinnamon is kind of GNOME, as it started out as Gnome 3 with plugins, because nobody liked Gnome 3 back in 2011 except for Fedora, and Linux Mint's answer was to use Gnome 3 anyway, but add lots of bandaid on it to make it feel like what their riced Gnome 2 used to be.
     But then they realized that Gnome kept breaking extensions with every new release, so they went like "fine, I guess I'll have to fork it and turn it into a DE of its own then...".
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     Udon (udon@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 16:40:10 JST Udon

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     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @coin @furgar @ryo
     I would recommend Devuan too. It has a good balance between stability and usability, without the most cancerous stuff like systemd itself (I know it still have a lot of its components).
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     Charliebrownau (charliebrownau@pieville.net)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Nov-2022 18:27:05 JST Charliebrownau

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     @ryo @coin @furgar @TerminalAutism

     i reverted back to the old apps

     none of these soyd dependency new 'modern' fangled things

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     Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 06:55:46 JST Terminal Autism

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     @ryo @charliebrownau @coin @furgar @udon I know. It's heavy and featureless, like GNOME itself. There is no reason to use it when XFCE and MATE exist and are also GTK3. It's also ridiculous that GNOME even has extensions like that. Bloated but featureless and you still need extensions that break all the time to do anything. What is it, a fucking web browser? It's pointless. There are window managers out there that are extensible and light, and stable. And more customizable desktop environments that are also lighter.
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 07:02:22 JST 寮

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     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @coin @furgar @udon I still remember the dumpster fire when Gnome 3 came out.
     Gnome 2 was so good that almost every distro used it as its default (a notable one who didn't was OpenSUSE who went with KDE instead, and elementaryOS who always had their own thing anyway).
     On the contrary, Gnome 3 was so bad, nobody except for Fedora wanted to have anything to do with it for a long time.
     
     At that time I was already switching between Gnome 2, OpenBox, and AwesomeWM anyway, so it had a much smaller impact on me compared to many other Linux users.
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     Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 07:08:09 JST Terminal Autism

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     @ryo @charliebrownau @furgar Well, I used Gentoo in the past, so to me that's a tolerable slowness. Anyway, doing a lot of things with C is a pain, and Perl was the scripting language for that kind of thing back in the day, and it was in pretty much every base system, so they used it, and now rewriting everything would be a pain. Hell, the default window manager is FVWM, and Perl is a dependency for that.
     
     Programming languages are a problem in general. Even now, what would you use? Scripting languages exist for a reason, it's because you don't want to use C for everything because it's a pain. Newer scripting languages are as slow as Perl (except when compiled, like Lua with LuaJIT), and much much slower for working with strings, and have versions that are incompatible with each other.
     
     Really, if you ask me, scripting languages shouldn't even exist, there should just be one language with a solid, simple and consistent design, that can do everything. The fact that scripting languages exist indicate deficiencies in both C and in shell. Lisp can do all that, but it is pretty dead in general, and most people don't like the syntax, and so far, every attempt to give it a more conventional syntax has failed, and changing it now means throwing away a whole lot of work that has been done over more than half a century. And most of those languages are dead. Tcl is almost dead, and doesn't have a compiler. Maybe Rhombus (Racket 2.0) will succeed, but who the fuck knows? Apparently Wolfram Language has a syntax that accomplishes the same, but that's proprietary, and very specialized.
     
     Meanwhile, there are thousands of languages, all trying to be like C, and mostly fucking failing.
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 07:08:09 JST 寮

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     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @furgar C seems hard to learn, but it really isn't.
     
     > Meanwhile, there are thousands of languages, all trying to be like C, and mostly fucking failing.
     
     Because most aim to add retarded bloat on top of the language.
     Like C++ trying to add OOPs, and a lot of other concepts you don't need, but still try to make mandatory to use.
     Or C# trying to add mandatory OOPs and a Java-like syntax.
     
     The only language made in the 21st century that can be considered decent is Go, and it's made by the same guys who made C in the 20th century.
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     Charliebrownau (charliebrownau@pieville.net)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 07:10:32 JST Charliebrownau

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     @TerminalAutism @furgar @ryo

     I would rather Perl then python infecting itself all over FOSS

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     Charliebrownau (charliebrownau@pieville.net)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 07:10:53 JST Charliebrownau

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     @TerminalAutism @furgar @ryo

     If a programming language cant complile its own exe/bin/etc

     Then its shit

     Id rather see
     assembly , c , pascal, fortan

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     Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 07:12:51 JST Terminal Autism

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     @charliebrownau @furgar @ryo I don't use either of them because I'm not a programmer, but I have both as dependencies. If I used any of the scripting languages, it would be Lua because LuaJIT is very fast, and it's the extension language for a lot of good programs (Notion, Awesome, mpv, NeoVim, Luakit, and it's also frequently used for games as well from what I hear). Or Tcl because it has a lot of the power of Lisp, and it also has Tk. The language that I have used the most is POSIX shell, and it's also the worst language in the universe. Actually, even a Scheme, like Guile. Guile is the GNU project's official extension language, so it is in that category too, I guess, even though Scheme isn't generally used for that (hell, it's generally not used for anything at all because again, it's Lisp, and it's dead, and in this case it's not even well-standardized Lisp).
     
     Though really, the only programming that I have to do, I decided to just do it in JavaScript, though I have been procrastinating on that. I want a better way to manage tabs and bookmarks, and I was going to make a Common Lisp program (hell, I wrote some of the most important functions, and then got stuck on the user interface because SLY kept crashing Emacs, and then I installed SLIME, and it's all very confusing, because really, the most major problem with CL is that the environment is so gigantic and clusterfucked, and very few people are willing to get past that barrier to entry), but that's silly, that should just be a browser extension, so it should be in JS. And then I can easily use it for other things as well. It makes the most sense, because I think programming sucks and that it's gay and that we should throw everything in the garbage and start from scratch, so I should just do the bare minimum. And web browsing is the only thing in my system that is not tolerable, so I should just fix that in the most straight-forward way possible.
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 07:12:51 JST 寮

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     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @furgar Fun fact, Lua is so easy to learn, you can master the entire language in just a half day.
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     Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 07:17:23 JST Terminal Autism

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     @charliebrownau @furgar @ryo I agree. But I would say more than that. If it doesn't have a REPL, it's also shit. And if you can't modify the program as it runs, it's also shit. So, all viable languages are shit, and the rest are dead or dying, or mostly toys. Since it's an industry, it is a field designed by and for retards, because designing things right takes too long, and monkey want banana now.
     
     Abandon all hope ye who enter programming. I don't like it (that's an understatement). It's why I don't do it much. Other than my occasional shitty scripts written in the worst language ever made. I guess if you have to go with something bad, you might as well pick the worst, especially when it's still the most immediately usable. Other than that, the only thing that gets me to "want" to program at all is just how horrible other people's programs are. But let's be real here, I will never fix their mess no matter what I do, and I'm not going to recreate everything from scratch, so I'll just put a band-aid on the wounds that I can't ignore away. Maybe with some garlic under it to disinfect it.
     
     Seems like every time I talk about tech, it turns into a rant. Even the programs that I like, even they are unbelievably broken. Like Emacs! With Athena, the GUI keeps freezing, constantly. With GTK, it doesn't, but then the daemon doesn't work as it should, because of a bug that was never fixed! Everything is like that to some degree or another, unless there is nothing good about it at all, like web browsers. Hell, I could complain about this page itself. Pleroma may actually be the worst website that I have ever seen in my entire life. ONE TAB of it manages to slow the browser down. HOW?! It's TEXT AND IMAGES! I can run 3D video games with dozens of hours of content, and they don't slow down at all, but text and fucking images do!
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 07:17:23 JST 寮

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     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @furgar The funny thing about Pleroma is, it used to be bloat with 1 actual developer surrounded by many wokies just taking credit over maybe 1 grammar fix in a translation or the readme file.
     And now that they kicked him out because they got their feelings hurt, they have no developer left, and this can be reflected with the current state of Pleroma, Rebase/Soapbox, and Akkamai.
     Pleroma only had 1 minor update since Alex got canceled, Akkamai is literally just Pleroma with even more bugs, and Rebase/Soapbox are the ones actually being developed,
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     Charliebrownau (charliebrownau@pieville.net)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 07:24:08 JST Charliebrownau

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     @ryo @furgar @TerminalAutism

     Wasnt Pleroma orginally made really well by a porn company, they left and then diversity infected the project for ((( control))) and it went to shit ?

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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 07:24:08 JST 寮

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     @charliebrownau @furgar @TerminalAutism No, it got funding by a porn company because Lain tricked them into believing that he's a cute porn actress, even though he's really just a dude in drag, while Alex was disgusted by the fact that he's developing software with porn money.
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     Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 08:17:20 JST Terminal Autism

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     @ryo @charliebrownau @coin @furgar @udon That's something that I heard about when I first used Linux, that had happened a little while before that. My first DE was Unity. I had no idea what any of that was, though I just saw people complain about GNOME 3 and how GNOME 2 was good, and later about systemd. I didn't know what any of it was for few years, actually.
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 08:18:42 JST 寮

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     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @coin @furgar @udon Funny you mention that, as I'm actually preparing an article about exactly that for today evening.
     Though not really related to this exact case, but it has elements of it in it.
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 08:30:23 JST 寮

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     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @furgar Not using unused variables is actually better when it comes to using less memory and shit, though I don't like it to be forced.
     But on the other hand, if most developers these days can't code properly, sometimes you need to lecture them, because the end user is the one suffering from it in the end.
     
     Even in PHP when I'm done using a variable on the backend, I always unlink it before loading the frontend to minimalize the potential attack surface.
     Or when I have to take out all data from the database because I need all of it except for the password, remember_me token, and password reset date, I manually unlink those so that they will never leave the server side, so they never end up at the client side ready for these being exploited.
     
     And there are ways to hide passwords in things like a confirmation screen by just creating a new variable, taking the length of the actual password itself in a for loop, concatting the new variable with asterisks inside of it, and showing that in the frontend.
     But many devs are simply retarded, and just send the user password from the backend to the frontend in an unencrypted HTTP POST request in a web app filled with CDN'd soyscripts, and let it be that at least 1 of them is sniffing these HTTP requests, and you're putting all your users at risk.
     
     I prefer to manage garbage by myself, so GC is just standing in the way for me.
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     Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 08:30:24 JST Terminal Autism

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     @ryo @charliebrownau @furgar C was my first programming language, actually. The second one was Emacs Lisp. Also, I don't like Go, I would unironically rather just use JavaScript. To me not being able to have unused variables by default is a deal breaker, because that is part of how I organize problems before solving them, I think about the variables that I need.
     
     Should be just warnings, but nope, errors. They also force their retarded style on you, and fuck that. It's just And it wasn't designed by particularly competent designers, just people that are very good at shitting things out really fast and then never changing them, which is why they always won in the tech industry. Hell, JavaScript won that way too as far as I'm aware. It was supposed to be Scheme, but at the time, Java was the trendy thing to use, so it had to look like Java.
     
     Also, if you're willing to use a garbage-collected language, there are plenty of options. Lisp is one. Ada is another. Maybe Haskell, never tried that one. Still not all that aware of what functional programming is, I just know that some things that I like are considered functional staples, apparently (filter/remove-if, fold/reduce, map/mapcar).
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     Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 08:30:40 JST Terminal Autism

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     @ryo @charliebrownau @furgar Fun fact, just like JavaScript, it was created because the creator wasn't allowed to just use Lisp.
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 08:34:19 JST 寮

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     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @furgar And the retarded soydevs just turn it into all asterisks on the frontend using Javascript if at all even.
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     Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 09:17:08 JST Terminal Autism

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     @ryo @charliebrownau @coin @furgar @udon Sounds interesting. I'm more interested in reading about programming than in actually programming. Maybe I'm just a fake and a fraud. At least I admit it, I guess.
     
     There are way too many languages, though. I actually read a lot and tried quite a few of them because when I got more interested in programming again for a while, I wanted to know "what is the best language?". My favorites were Forth and Lisp. Forth I think is inherently more read-only, though. With prefix syntax, you know that the first element in a list is the thing that will be done (unless it's quoted), and then see all the arguments. In Forth, you see all the arguments, and then you see what is done to them.
     
     Fine for writing, probably not so fine for reading. You almost have to read it backwards, while keeping track of the stack in your head (it's fun to do, almost like a game, but reading must be more difficult). But just like Lisp, it's immensely powerful, just from the simple design of it (Smalltalk is also in that category, and even more dead than the rest), not from stacking (HEH!) a billion features on top of what is already a giant mess. Other languages are like evolution, but those languages are like the CHAD "Intelligent Design".
     
     Anyway, the number of languages that are even comparable to those is very small, despite the number of languages in existence. One (meme?) term that people use to say why Lisp is powerful, is homoiconity. Look at the number of languages that Shitpedia says have it:
     https://wikiless.org/wiki/Homoiconicity#Implementation_methods
     
     And almost all of them are dead or dying. Survival of the most marketable, I guess.
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 09:17:08 JST 寮

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     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @coin @furgar @udon Only a few languages truly matter, the rest is just a meme.
     They're basically designed to be trendy for a year or 2, and then everyone forgets they ever existed.
     Or some remain trendy long term like JavaScript and Python, because apparently that's what everyone is taught in college these days.
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     Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 09:26:20 JST Terminal Autism

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     @ryo @charliebrownau @furgar "Not using unused variables is actually better when it comes to using less memory and shit"
     That's why the compiler should give you a warning. Then you can remember to remove them if you forgot.
     
     Also, I have never used it (I actually haven't done much with C other than learning it, and writing core util-like programs that just do something with text), but there is a garbage collector that can be used in C, I remember that, but forgot the name of it. Really, I think every language should have one and also have it be optional. I mean, why not? It's possible.
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 09:26:20 JST 寮

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     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @furgar GC is useful for people who keep forgetting to properly close sockets, remove unused variables, and all that, but it doesn't deal with variables that have been used up and no longer serve a purpose towards the end of the code.
     
     I just believe that cleaning up memory after use should be the task of the programmer, or at the very least have still have some programmers around with knowledge to that, because once the entire old guard dies off, we'll be left with only people who take GC for granted, and we'll start running out of 9999999 Pebibytes of RAM real quick, because there'll be no one around to fix memory leak bugs in the shiny new, trendy NiggaJewFaggotScript language.
     "What do you mean with memory leaks? Do you mean that weird long onion? That sounds pretty tasty!"
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     Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 12:07:27 JST Terminal Autism

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     @ryo @charliebrownau @coin @furgar @udon I "learned" C in college, before I dropped out. I learned more on my own in one sitting than I did in like, four months of college. Ridiculous.
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 12:10:15 JST 寮

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     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @coin @furgar @udon Back when I was a senior dev at a full time job, I trained new graduates every single year, and at some point even stopped asking them what languages they knew, because it's all identical with all of them: a little bit of Visual Basic, some Node.js, and Python.
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     Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 12:11:34 JST Terminal Autism

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     @ryo @charliebrownau @furgar Garbage collection is perfectly fine for userspace stuff, particularly when you don't have to squeeze out every last bit of performance.
     
     You don't want it in your kernel, of course, but for an XMPP client, it really doesn't matter. Definitely worth it, better than Pidgin leaking almost 16 GB of memory, like what happened to me.
     
     Also, let's say that you make a media player based on ffmpeg. You don't want ffmpeg itself to make any compromises on performance, but the media player itself, that can have garbage collection, it's fine.
     
     On the other hand, if you make a tool that will be used for scripting and that people may run hundreds of thousands of times on a loop, then you want maximum performance as well.
     
     It depends, really. For anything that I would make myself, I don't think there would be a downside. Though with it being optional, you can always turn it off when you want to, and fortunately, idiots will not, and that's a good thing because a lot of software is made by idiots or inexperienced people. And again, with it being optional, the people that know what they're doing can change it. It's kinda like typing. In CL, you can disable dynamic typing in specific functions. Makes sense to me, it's there in case you need to optimize certain functions.
     
     Oh, it's also worth mentioning that it makes the language better for teaching and learning, so it will have more adoption, and then those people can choose how to manage memory manually later. Smoother learning curve. If that was done, maybe we wouldn't be stuck in a world where everything is written in Python and slow as shit, and maybe scripting languages wouldn't be as much of a thing. But no, everything has to go one way or another because everyone insists that everything has to be done one way in every situation.
     
     Well, at least it's not my problem, doesn't affect me, I'm just not going to contribute to any of that at all... is what I would say, except software got so shitty that it actually did affect me.
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     寮 (ryo@social.076.ne.jp)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 12:13:09 JST 寮

     in reply to

     • Furgar
     • Terminal Autism
     @TerminalAutism @charliebrownau @furgar I actually love squeezing out maximum performance, it's a challenge you remain proud of for a very long time, and it's like making art at the same time.
   • Embed this notice
     Charliebrownau (charliebrownau@pieville.net)'s status on Thursday, 24-Nov-2022 12:13:54 JST Charliebrownau

     in reply to

     • 寮
     • Furgar
     • Terminal Autism

     @TerminalAutism @furgar @ryo

     Talking about Media Players

     Whats with AV1 files stuttering all the time compared to AVC/HEVC

     寮 likes this.