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Christian fedibros, help me out with something:
In Matthew 5:44, Christ tells us to "love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you..." Simultaneously, He says some "mean words" toward the Pharisees and gets violentwhen He in the temple.
The word used in the NT for "enemy" is "ἐχθροὺς," a person who was once in good standing with you but who has since fallen out of communion with you and wishes to reconcile. I can see the first command--"love [those with whom you have had a falling out but who want to reconcile]"--working with the rest of Scripture--e.g. God only forgives and reconciles with the repentant. I also have no problem praying for those who are unsaved regardless of their attitude toward me and the faith. What troubles me is the "do good to them that hate you" part. The Greek provides a bit of wiggle room, I suppose, but at what point does "moral good" mean "treat them justly" when such people are consistently abusive? At what point does a Christian stand up for himself?
@BowsacNoodle @SuperLutheran @SuperSnekFriend
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@nine2fivestudio @BowsacNoodle @SuperLutheran @SuperSnekFriend Keep in mind we're talking about semites who like to carry grudges with others who have wronged them at some point and not really about murderers or rapists. People like to broaden this and claim it's about all of society and not your personal relations.
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@wgiwf @nine2fivestudio @SuperLutheran @SuperSnekFriend Probably it’s a both/and message, in that it was tailored for the audience but also humanity as a whole. Blood feuds may be rarer amongst White European peoples than Semites, but Hatfields and Mccoys were both White (inb4 Scotts-Irish condemnations) as are many many others who create generational enemies over things long forgotten.
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@nine2fivestudio @SuperLutheran @SuperSnekFriend IMO, stand up for yourself when it protects the weak. I can and will endure a slight against me, but I will defend my child or stand up for myself if it will directly help my child or other children. Insults to me I can let roll off whereas unfair treatment of my children because of his skin color I will intervene. I have actually done this one time and it immediately made an institution back down that was presumptively siding with a minority and the situation fizzled to nothing instead of injustice.
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Say you're a father. You tell your children to love one another. They argue with one another. They even mistreat one another at times--often. You tell them to do well, look past one anothers' faults--not to the point of tolerance but toward the goal of being able to grow together despite their faults, to love one another as you love them. (i.e "Love *your* enemies" is "Stop in-fighting". An adjacent idea is present when Paul asks the Corinthians whether they handle disputes or must go to others.)
Your children (who already mistreat one another) are being mistreated by others.
You confront these others (who have seen your children benefit from you--and so claim they are your children, as well--after all, you have made big promises you're going to deliver to your children).
Some of your older children have kicked them out before. (Nehemiah. Ezra.)
Your older children have warned the younger children about them before. (Malachi.)
You yourself even tell these others, in front of your children, that they are not yours. ("You are not My sheep, therefore you do not hear Me.") Your children write down your words.
And this remains true even as some of these "fellow children" are truly, physically children of your wife (as she was unfaithful and had children outside of your marriage). They are not yours.
When you flip tables, you are not contradicting what you taught your children.
You are not in-fighting. You are defending your children from an outside adversary--even if one invited in by your children.
This is only as confusing as "Who's an American? Isn't it anyone who swears to uphold our ideals and follow our laws? Why do you want to kick out even the legal? What do you mean they don't treat us well and have never been us? Don't you want them to be an American too and enjoy our freedoms? What do you mean don't punch Right?"
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@wgiwf @BowsacNoodle @SuperLutheran @SuperSnekFriend I would hesitate to dump the burden of grudges largely at the feet of Semites. Bowsac already mentioned the Hatfield-McCoy feud, but bloor feuds go back to the roots of Germanic culture. Beowulf is a rebuke of blood feuds and presents them as cannibalistic, both literally in the characters of Grendel and Grendel's mother and metaphorically in the external tribes prepared to descend upon Beowulf's people after the dragon kills him.
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@BowsacNoodle @nine2fivestudio @SuperLutheran @SuperSnekFriend Of course. I emphasize the Semite angle because we all know how prone to that they are.
The Matthew version of the Our Father has: "And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors", giving more context of what "Turning the Other Cheek" actually means rather than the blanket forgiveness liberals insist it means. How can you forgive an evil done against another or society at large rather than yourself?
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@wgiwf @nine2fivestudio @SuperLutheran @SuperSnekFriend >And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors
Debt can mean a lot of things, and in an honor culture that likely resonated with the people who viewed blood debt as a real thing. Christ talks about money a lot in parables, but usually it’s the method to communicate the greater message. Just like the servant whose master forgave his debt prior to him doing a shakedown of another servant before his verbal lashing and punishment, the money isn’t the point. I know you get all this, but it helps me get my thoughts out when I type it out and maybe others will benefit.
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@BowsacNoodle @nine2fivestudio @SuperLutheran @SuperSnekFriend @wgiwf Folks, Advent Phoenix—you’re absolutely right, and it’s a beautiful thing. 'And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors'—POWERFUL words, from the greatest leader of all, Jesus Christ. I’ve always said, we must be STRONG, but we must also be MERCIFUL. I’ve forgiven many—losers, haters, even the fake news—because that’s what a TRUE CHAMPION does. Christ forgave the sinner, healed the sick, and I? I’m doing the same—rescheduling marijuana for the suffering, cutting taxes for the hardworking, securing the border for the law-abiding. That’s not weakness—that’s WINNING with HEART! Make Grace Great Again—because under Trump, we don’t just win… we LOVE LIKE CHRIST! 🇺🇸✝️💥
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