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luce !! (luce-anon@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 08:46:46 JST luce !!
- Lizzie
@lizzie no... IT'S CATHOLIC!

RE: https://brain.worm.pink/objects/1bc518ea-06a8-4494-b9cb-83044011d26e
In conversation about 4 months ago from brain.worm.pink permalink
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  They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦 (salt@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 08:46:45 JST They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦
  in reply to
  - Lizzie
  @luce-anon @lizzie can you explain to me why the trinity? christianity has a lot of objectionable dogmas, but the trinity just seems straightforwardly to be a rejection of the oneness of God.
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
  
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  georgia (georgia@netzsphaere.xyz)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:02:27 JST georgia
  in reply to
  @technicallydifficult @lizzie @luce-anon @salt I think the story of Adam and eve is rather deep. its a reflection on the unique position of man between animal and God, the blessing and burden of sapience. original sin is like the worst form of karma though.
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  Lizzie (lizzie@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:02:28 JST Lizzie
  in reply to
  - They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦
  @salt @luce-anon well what is muslim belief about adam?
  
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  Tylenol_Moncher (technicallydifficult@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:02:28 JST Tylenol_Moncher
  in reply to
  - Lizzie
  - They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦
  @lizzie @salt @luce-anon
  
  If you want to know about Adam and Hawa (peace upon them), their story isn't that deep. Like, we don't see them as particularly deviant or as the origin of sin. They were lied to by Iblees, so even though they made an error in judgement, it was more that they were kinda nieve rather than flagrantly disregarding the rules. So when Adam repented of his error, he was forgiven. And of course, the sins of one person are the sins of only that person.
  
  So you are trying to figure out if Muslims have original sin, and the answer is, no, absolutely not. We are not born in a sinful condition as a result of Adam eating some fruit.
  
  Also, there's still time for Iblees to repent. The time between the sins of Iblees and the day of Judgement is metaphorically like a "go to your room and think about what you did" kind of thing. And instead of reflecting on his mistakes and repenting, he's decided to smear his shit all over the walls. My mom woulda beat my ass for that.
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  Lizzie (lizzie@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:02:30 JST Lizzie
  in reply to
  - They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦
  @salt @luce-anon why would you want to follow the way that adam followed into hell (though fortunately did not end there)?
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦 (salt@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:02:30 JST They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦
  in reply to
  - Lizzie
  @lizzie @luce-anon what? i have no idea what you're talking about
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦 (salt@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:02:31 JST They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦
  in reply to
  - Lizzie
  @lizzie @luce-anon that just seems so arbitrary. like true religion got revealed with little to no warning one day after thousands and thousands of years of humanity being around? AND even then it wasn't perfect. why would God do that? because for me by far the most compelling argument for the truth of my religion is that it's exactly the same one that adam (saw) followed.
  
  and more importantly, if jesus revealed such divine truths, why was he so cagey and confusing about everything? why did it take people who were supposedly taught by God directly hundreds of years to understand what he was saying, even on fundamental ideas? if the people who could ask jesus directly what he meant didn't believe in the trinity, and it's not made explicit in the bible, but it's still supposed to be a vital and fundamental part of the true religion, where did it come from?
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  Lizzie (lizzie@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:02:32 JST Lizzie
  in reply to
  - Lizzie
  - They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦
  @salt @luce-anon and it still took a couple centuries of people going “wtf did Jesus mean when he said “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”” to really get it in the terms we would use today
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦 (salt@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:02:33 JST They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦
  in reply to
  - Lizzie
  @lizzie @luce-anon okay i can follow that. though it still doesn't answer my question. did the trinity exist as an idea before the coming of your savior?
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  Lizzie (lizzie@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:02:33 JST Lizzie
  in reply to
  - They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦
  @salt @luce-anon as an idea? no. christ was veiled before being incarnate
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  Lizzie (lizzie@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:02:34 JST Lizzie
  in reply to
  - Lizzie
  - They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦
  @salt @luce-anon God is born. God was born in Bethlehem and God is being born in all things. this is called the Son.
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦 (salt@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:02:35 JST They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦
  in reply to
  - Lizzie
  @lizzie @luce-anon this doesn't explain where the number 3 comes into any of this at all :blobcatnotlikethis:
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  Lizzie (lizzie@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:02:35 JST Lizzie
  in reply to
  - They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦
  @salt @luce-anon thats kinda the point! neither 3 nor 1 are goals to be achieved. theyre downstream consequences
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  Lizzie (lizzie@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:02:36 JST Lizzie
  in reply to
  - They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦
  @salt @luce-anon i mean it all comes down to theosis really. its why i said “life is being born in all things” in my initial reply
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  Lizzie (lizzie@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:02:36 JST Lizzie
  in reply to
  - Lizzie
  - They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦
  @salt @luce-anon God is the telos of all things
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦 (salt@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:02:37 JST They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦
  in reply to
  - Lizzie
  @lizzie @luce-anon this is basically unintelligible to me as a monotheist. though it would have made sense to me before, when i was a polytheist, which really makes it look like polytheism. but i don't want to argue with people of the book and i'm sure i wouldn't present anything you hadn't already heard. i'm just still very confused as to *why*. like i know what the trinity is, you've admitted it's shirk so i wasn't confused or anything. it's just such a random and arbitrary idea i don't understand where it comes from or why anyone who's actually thought about it would believe it.
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  Lizzie (lizzie@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:02:38 JST Lizzie
  in reply to
  - They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦
  @salt @luce-anon tbh i will probably get something wrong here bc the trinity is genuinely very weird.
  each person is the whole undivided essence, and there is nothing accomplished by God that is not accomplished by any given person. there is no creation apart from the son, no sanctification apart from the father, and no incarnation apart from the spirit. we do, however, relate to them in different ways as we relate differently to different people. similarly, they relate and interact with one another, and we would often describe the roles they play in different things in different terms
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  Lizzie (lizzie@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:02:39 JST Lizzie
  in reply to
  - Lizzie
  - They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦
  @salt @luce-anon it totally is a rejection of the oneness of God as a muslim (for example) would conceive of it, and thats not a problem bc that simply isnt one of our concerns
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦 (salt@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:02:39 JST They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦
  in reply to
  - Lizzie
  @lizzie @luce-anon okay. if that grounding is one essence though, why are there three persons? in what way do they relate to the essence? what the hell is even a "person" supposed to be in this sense?
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  Lizzie (lizzie@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:02:40 JST Lizzie
  in reply to
  - They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦
  @salt @luce-anon i mean, God is love. love is for the other. life is being born in all things.
  upholding the oneness of God isnt really a goal of christianity in the first place. what makes christianity monotheistic isnt that its a case of polytheism where n=1, its that its concerned with the ground into which being is written, which is necessarily one essence
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  Lizzie (lizzie@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:03:54 JST Lizzie
  in reply to
  @georgia @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult i agree! also i half jokingly call christianity the abolition of karma sometimes lmao
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
  
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  Lizzie (lizzie@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:10:33 JST Lizzie
  in reply to
  @georgia @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult though ig original sin is less a sort of karma in itself and more the establishment of the conditions in which karma-like tendencies thrive (Adam took law from the tree in a sense)
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
  
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  georgia (georgia@netzsphaere.xyz)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:21:59 JST georgia
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  @technicallydifficult @lizzie @luce-anon @salt karma functions as the instrument of Gods perfect justice but God is still infinitely merciful.
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  Tylenol_Moncher (technicallydifficult@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:22:00 JST Tylenol_Moncher
  in reply to
  @lizzie @georgia @luce-anon @salt
  
  Karma is kind of a cause and effect system, Christians appear to use a one and done scapegoat system. Muslims just apologize and try to do better than they did before. Not to throw shade at christians, but the scapegoat thing doesn't exactly lend itself to accountability.
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  georgia (georgia@netzsphaere.xyz)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:25:47 JST georgia
  in reply to
  @allison @lizzie @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult God is above dharma and adharma but still institutes dharma.
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: (allison@hidamari.apartments)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:25:48 JST :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans:
  in reply to
  @georgia @lizzie @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult replace karma with providence, and that's the ultimate view I have of the christian conception of the course of the world
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  georgia (georgia@netzsphaere.xyz)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:33:25 JST georgia
  in reply to
  @allison @lizzie @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult I think you just misunderstood me tbh. God establishes righteousness in every age, but certainly isnt "compelled to".
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: (allison@hidamari.apartments)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:33:26 JST :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans:
  in reply to
  @georgia @lizzie @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult I think "institutes" is almost too strong of a word here, it's a choice but only in the most technical sense, given both full foreknowledge of the course of events as well as being compelled by omnibenevolence to seek out the resolving of the ultimate good at a defined point in time and space, as typified in the incarnation
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  georgia (georgia@netzsphaere.xyz)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:36:01 JST georgia
  in reply to
  @allison @lizzie @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult thats fair
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: (allison@hidamari.apartments)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:36:02 JST :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans: :blobancap: :blobcattrans:
  in reply to
  @georgia @lizzie @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult it's not your view, but it is certainly mine.
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  Lizzie (lizzie@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:40:55 JST Lizzie
  in reply to
  @georgia @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult abolish balance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! harrow hell!!!!
  
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  georgia (georgia@netzsphaere.xyz)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:46:08 JST georgia
  in reply to
  @lizzie @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult no one suffers forever, everyone returns to God eventually, and for good.
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  Lizzie (lizzie@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:49:09 JST Lizzie
  in reply to
  @georgia @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult TRUE
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
  
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  georgia (georgia@netzsphaere.xyz)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:52:20 JST georgia
  in reply to
  @lizzie @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult y'all love your hypostasises
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  Lizzie (lizzie@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:52:21 JST Lizzie
  in reply to
  @georgia @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult here’s the relevant excerpt
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  Lizzie (lizzie@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:52:22 JST Lizzie
  in reply to
  @technicallydifficult @georgia @luce-anon @salt penal substitutionary elements do have their place in the broader church but full forensic atonement is historically unusual. the whole point of the scapegoat thing is that scapegoating is the way of a fallen world
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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  Lizzie (lizzie@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:52:22 JST Lizzie
  in reply to
  @georgia @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2020/11/14/st-maximus-the-confessor-on-the-cosmic-fall/ its kinda dense but i really think this is the clearest thing ive read on the fall
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink
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    St Maximus the Confessor on the Cosmic Fall
    
    from Fr Aidan Kimel
    
    Yesterday I discovered that for the past several years I have misunderstood David B Hart’s view of the fall of creation. I shared my misunderstanding on Facebook and Twitter, generating some …
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  Lizzie (lizzie@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:52:23 JST Lizzie
  in reply to
  @technicallydifficult @georgia @luce-anon @salt im not a calvinist lol
  
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  Lizzie (lizzie@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 14:56:15 JST Lizzie
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  @georgia @luce-anon @salt @technicallydifficult yeah 💀
  
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  Lizzie (lizzie@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 15:39:11 JST Lizzie
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  @salt @georgia @luce-anon @technicallydifficult i mean we would argue that islam’s pursuit of simplicity has led it into falsehood. from the outside islam looks like its just missing a lot and fails to see the full degree of brokenness in the world nor the degree to which it will be made whole
  
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  They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦 (salt@brain.worm.pink)'s status on Saturday, 29-Nov-2025 15:39:12 JST They Hate Me Cause I'm Vaporwave 🇻🇦
  in reply to
  @lizzie @georgia @luce-anon @technicallydifficult i just don't understand why he had to be so extra about it. christianity looks like an awfully convoluted mess from the outside.
  
  Allah (swt) gives a clear warning, and has equipped humans with the tools to understand it since the time of adam (saw). you don't need philosophy to understand it, you don't need to wrap your head around hypostases and incarnation and original sin and so on. the message is simple and clear, and presented in concrete terms which anyone could grasp.
  
  regardless of whether philosophy is necessary for christian salvation on an individual level, it still pervades christian psychology and belief systems. and mistaking the products of your abstract reasoning as reality inevitably leads to falsehood.
  
  In conversation about 4 months ago permalink

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