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   pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:04:49 JST pistolero
   They use Thinkpads on the ISS.
   iss-thinkpad.png
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:06:13 JST pistolero

     in reply to
     
     iss-thinkpads.png
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:08:53 JST pistolero

     in reply to
     You think the batteries in these Thinkpads work?
     iss-more-thinkpads.png
     Nietzschean Ekko Enjoyer repeated this.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:09:10 JST 翠星石

     in reply to
     @p Tbh, the T60p is quite a bad model - the T500 and W500 are much better.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:10:34 JST 翠星石

     in reply to
     @p Yes, I have original ThinkPad batteries from 2009(?) that work fine.
     
     Decent panasonic cells tend to last.
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     Phantasm (phnt@fluffytail.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:14:05 JST Phantasm

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     @p And :debnyan:
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:14:40 JST 翠星石

     in reply to

     • 翠星石
     @p https://icecat.biz/rest/product-pdf?productId=7433112&lang=en
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:16:54 JST pistolero

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     • 翠星石
     @Suiseiseki I have like three T500s, none of which have working screens because of the horrible hinge design that fails frequently and when it does, it fails in a way that shoves a piece of metal through the screen. The T60 had a steel frame.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:17:19 JST pistolero

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     • Phantasm
     @phnt Oh...well, at least it's not Windows.
     
     I bet the noise floor is weird in orbit. They are all plugged into the Ethernet, which is probably faster up in the ether.
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     Avatar of Chaos (mk2boogaloo@freebeerextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:17:40 JST Avatar of Chaos

     in reply to
     @p yes.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:18:41 JST pistolero

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     • Avatar of Chaos
     @MK2boogaloo This is impossible because Thinkpad batteries are a mass hallucinatino.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:19:10 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • 翠星石
     @Suiseiseki Yeah? I've basically never had a Thinkpad battery last more than a year or two. One of the reasons I switched to the DevTerm was the batteries are just 18650s.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:23:34 JST pistolero

     in reply to
     Astronauts must be fuckin' nerds, the ISS is infested with Thinkpads.
     iss-thinkpads-4.png
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     Phantasm (phnt@fluffytail.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:23:53 JST Phantasm

     in reply to
     @p They never used Windows I think, because they deemed it too unstable from the start.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:24:39 JST 翠星石

     in reply to
     @p >I have like three T500s, none of which have working screens because of the horrible hinge design that fails frequently.
     Idk - on one T500 the hinge was completely fine after 16+ years - but the the magnesium-aluminum chassis broke.
     
     I just swapped the panel into another T500 screen assembly and the problem was fixed.
     
     >it fails in a way that shoves a piece of metal through the screen.
     I haven't had that problem - I can't imagine how that would happen unless you slammed the hinge like a gorilla.
     
     The hinges can need oiling after 15+ years - as those can get overly stiff otherwise (forcing the hinge like a gorilla will break the screen assembly).
     
     >The T60 had a steel frame.
     The screen panel in the T500 does have a steel frame that is screwed into the chassis.
     
     The T60 is kind of not very useful as it can only map 3.5GB of memory.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:26:07 JST pistolero

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     • Phantasm
     @phnt Well, Windows *was* way unstable. They did use DOS, and it was ROM DOS with ROM software. I can't imagine that they went straight from DOS to Linux, though.
     th-2756697724.jpe
     5082f427929c29f279b0ee5e083ff9db--computer-industrial-1609365957.jpg
     FZwvAd8UEAE2IRK-2299498034.jpg large.jpe
     logo.jpg
     lairdwh_ebay1.jpg
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     DS.Now (dnutzinski@poa.st)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:27:02 JST DS.Now

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     @p Well, they are tough af....
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:27:02 JST pistolero

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     • DS.Now
     @DNutzinski Not a lot of mechanical strain without gravity, though.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:27:32 JST 翠星石

     in reply to
     @p Yes, if you buy bad quality batteries or use a linear power supply that goes "lmao, lets turn this AC into ~20V pulsating DC with no filtering", the battery will become useless after a year or two.
     
     The ThinkPad batteries are just 18650s internally.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:40:30 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • 翠星石
     @Suiseiseki
     
     > Idk - on one T500 the hinge was completely fine after 16+ years - but the the magnesium-aluminum chassis broke.
     
     Well, the hinge on the left was attached to the stupid thin part of the chassis. Technically it was not the hinge part of the hinge but the design.
     
     > I just swapped the panel into another T500 screen assembly and the problem was fixed.
     
     I took the screens off them and turned them into utility boxes. One of them was turned into a stationary desktop machine for a while.
     
     > I can't imagine how that would happen unless you slammed the hinge like a gorilla.
     
     I am nice to computer because computer is my friend: even my NES controllers still work fine. I have never slammed a hinge like a gorilla.
     
     > The screen panel in the T500 does have a steel frame that is screwed into the chassis.
     
     It does not. I have owned three of them. I have disassembled them. There is this terrible brittle thing and they carved out a chunk of it to make space for wifi antennas and shit and so there's mechanical strain on this two-inch wide piece.
     
     > The T60 is kind of not very useful as it can only map 3.5GB of memory.
     
     It is incredibly useful, because a laptop does not need 3.5GB of memory: it needs a nice screen, a nice keyboard, and a convenient way to connect to a real computer.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:42:24 JST pistolero

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     • 翠星石
     @Suiseiseki
     
     > The ThinkPad batteries are just 18650s internally.
     
     They are funny-shaped bundles of 18650s with firmware. It is much easier to just replace the 18650s on a computer that takes 18650s.
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     Phantasm (phnt@fluffytail.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:43:20 JST Phantasm

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     • DS.Now
     @p @DNutzinski Probably repairability on these old models.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:43:53 JST pistolero

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     • Phantasm
     • DS.Now
     @phnt @DNutzinski That is the likely case but I prefer to just assume that the astronauts are all nerds. :terryapproves:
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:46:15 JST 翠星石

     in reply to
     @p >Check T500 panel.
     >It has a steel frame.
     It's thin, but it's steel - but I guess only the right side has solid steel reinforcement.
     
     >it needs a nice screen
     Yeahhhh, the T60 has pretty bad 4:3 panels - while I like good 16:10 panels.
     
     >a nice keyboard,
     The keyboard is nice.
     
     >a convenient way to connect to a real computer.
     I like my computers to be real computers, rather than needing to connect to another one.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:49:15 JST 翠星石

     in reply to
     @p >They are funny-shaped bundles of 18650s with firmware.
     It's standard parallel+serial 18650 wiring with a standard thermal resistor - but there is proprietary software in the battery that interfaces with the EC over SMBus.
     
     >replace the 18650s on a computer that takes 18650s.
     I suspect such computer has similar proprietary software, except such software isn't designed to be erased on disconnection of the batteries.
     
     We do indeed need free EC software for the ThinkPads, so you can use batteries that run free software.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:52:58 JST pistolero

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     • 翠星石
     @Suiseiseki
     
     > It's thin, but it's steel
     
     The hinges are and I believe the chassis is, but they are attached to some brittle grey plastic that snaps.
     
     > Yeahhhh, the T60 has pretty bad 4:3 panels - while I like good 16:10 panels.
     
     Well, the T60's panel wasn't bright enough to use outside in the daytime, but it looked fine otherwise and I was using it at night anyway.
     
     > The keyboard is nice.
     
     On all of them until the x230. This is why I am using a DevTerm.
     
     > I like my computers to be real computers, rather than needing to connect to another one.
     
     Then you shouldn't bother with laptops.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 20:57:47 JST 翠星石

     in reply to
     @p >The hinges are
     Yes, the hinges are steel.
     
     >the chassis is
     The chassis is a magnesium-aluminum alloy - which takes shock pretty well, but if you bend it, it'll just break.
     
     >they are attached to some brittle grey plastic that snaps.
     The plastic is just the covering really.
     
     Unfortunately, ABS tends to get brittle with age and heat and the screw mounts do break off if you screw just a little bit too hard - but you can just glue the back on.
     
     >Then you shouldn't bother with laptops.
     The quad modded T500 or W500 is far better than most desktops.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 21:07:14 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • 翠星石
     @Suiseiseki
     
     > It's standard parallel+serial 18650 wiring with a standard thermal resistor - but there is proprietary software in the battery that interfaces with the EC over SMBus.
     
     Yeah, and it's a pain to crack it open. Anyway, a machine that uses regular 18650s doesn't require you to break open some plastic case that is not designed to be opened.
     
     > I suspect such computer has similar proprietary software,
     
     A lot of SOMs do, but the batteries are just batteries. I really like the RISC-V SOM: single-core, 1GHz, 1GB RAM, no proprietary stuff anywhere, battery lasts forever. Enough juice to run a compiler. You know, like, you can't build Firefox, but 1GHz and 1GB RAM is plenty for 90% of the shit I do with a mobile computer, and bloat works fine in w3m, and also now there is FediBBS.
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     m0xEE (m0xee@nosh0b10.m0xee.net)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 21:08:19 JST m0xEE

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     • 翠星石
     @p@fsebugoutzone.org @Suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com
     I have a battery from circa 2005 with 66% of its original capacity and a few in the 50% ballpark.
     Those are from original IBM Thinkpads though, and I've been maintaining them properly — never overcharging, storing them 60% charged when not using for extensive periods, etc.
     
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 21:12:46 JST pistolero

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     • 翠星石
     @Suiseiseki
     
     > The plastic is just the covering really.
     
     The hinges are not attached to the plastic case. There is the main chassis: that's steel. There are the hinges. They are steel. There are screws holding the hinges to the chassis. On the other side of the hinges, there are more screws. What are they attached to?
     
     I'm telling you, I've taken these things apart repeatedly. I am not confusing the backplate for the case.
     
     > but you can just glue the back on.
     
     No, you cannot glue this back together.
     
     > The quad modded T500 or W500 is far better than most desktops.
     
     Plenty of space for heat dissipation and a RAID array, I'm sure.
     
     It's a laptop. You use it to talk to computers; don't expect it to be an entire computer.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 21:14:34 JST 翠星石

     in reply to
     @p >Plenty of space for heat dissipation and a RAID array, I'm sure.
     The heatsink is in fact fine.
     
     You can do a 2 drive RAID array, as there's 2 SATA ports.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 21:15:47 JST 翠星石

     in reply to
     @p >I really like the RISC-V SOM: single-core, 1GHz, 1GB RAM, no proprietary stuff anywhere
     Have you looked at the RAM init and bootloader? Lots of proprietary software there.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 21:25:39 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • 翠星石
     @Suiseiseki
     
     > The heatsink is in fact fine.
     
     The physical size of the machine puts a hard, physical limit on heat density.
     
     > You can do a 2 drive RAID array, as there's 2 SATA ports.
     
     Not quite the same.
     here-s_a_nickel.png
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 21:29:27 JST 翠星石

     in reply to
     @p >The physical size of the machine puts a hard, physical limit on heat density.
     Yes, which is why laptop CPUs use less power, meaning the heatsink doesn't have a problem dealing with the extra heat a quad core CPU puts out.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 21:29:47 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • 翠星石
     @Suiseiseki Well, I don't know if the code for the boot ROM is available, but it's almost certainly smaller than the code in your MMU.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 21:33:22 JST 翠星石

     in reply to
     @p >code for the boot ROM is available
     Nobody can change bootROM.
     
     All RISC-V CPUs I've looked at have a proprietary software bootloader and use propriety software for RAMinit.
     
     >smaller than the code in your MMU.
     My MMU is made out of circuits nobody can change.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 21:39:14 JST pistolero

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     • 翠星石
     @Suiseiseki
     
     > proprietary software bootloader
     
     Well, it's uboot, and if there's firmware that gets loaded, whatever.
     
     > My MMU is made out of circuits nobody can change.
     
     Oh, okay. Then I am sure you're running a CPU that doesn't have proprietary microcode.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 21:43:10 JST pistolero

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     • 翠星石
     @Suiseiseki
     
     > Yes, which is why laptop CPUs use less power,
     
     Because they are not very good and they will drop to min-clcok if you use the thing in the car without cranking up the A/C. It's better to just get a regular computer and use the laptop as a terminal.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 21:45:37 JST 翠星石

     in reply to
     @p >they will drop to min-clcok if you use the thing in the car without cranking up the A/C.
     I haven't even seen a drop to a min clock even in hot weather - at most a slight downclock.
     
     >Well, it's uboot, and if there's firmware that gets loaded, whatever.
     u-boot is proprietary software.
     
     u-boot has machinery that loads propriety software without any firmness.
     
     >I am sure you're running a CPU that doesn't have proprietary microcode.
     I do not run proprietary software microcode updates.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 22:02:45 JST pistolero

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     • 翠星石
     @Suiseiseki
     
     > I haven't even seen a drop to a min clock even in hot weather - at most a slight downclock.
     
     Heat is a problem. It is a problem that you cannot solve in a tiny laptop. So it is better for the heavy lifting to happen on a real computer.
     
     > I do not run proprietary software microcode updates.
     
     You don't get the option of not running proprietary microcode. Refusing to update it is not quite the same.
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     ins0mniak (ins0mniak@mikoshidata.cloud)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 22:09:56 JST ins0mniak

     in reply to

     • 翠星石
     @p @Suiseiseki :terry_half:
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 22:18:55 JST 翠星石

     in reply to
     @p >It is a problem that you cannot solve in a tiny laptop.
     Good thing the T500 is big.
     
     >You don't get the option of not running proprietary microcode.
     Yes, hardware is proprietary, news at 11.
     
     >Refusing to update it is not quite the same.
     Refusing to run proprietary software under a proprietary software license is very different than using hardware that you own.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 22:26:17 JST pistolero

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     • 翠星石
     @Suiseiseki T500 is a laptop. It is just for doing laptop activities like drawterm and ssh.
     
     > Refusing to run proprietary software under a proprietary software license is very different than using hardware that you own.
     
     I don't understand how firmware and microcode differ materially.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 22:27:24 JST 翠星石

     in reply to
     @p >I don't understand
     Yes, you have been successfully confused by "firmware".
     
     Proprietary software is proprietary software, whether it's loaded on the main processor or a secondary processor.
     
     Proprietary hardware is proprietary hardware and doesn't have a proprietary software license attached to it - you can do whatever you dawn well please with it - as you own it.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 22:28:59 JST pistolero

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     • 翠星石
     @Suiseiseki As I understand it, rms considers firmware that cannot be modified to be essentially part of the hardware. Microcode can be modified.
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     roko's basilisk (vii@dsmc.space)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 22:29:04 JST roko's basilisk

     in reply to

     • 翠星石
     @p @Suiseiseki Intel would say it's special because the memory in which it's held is in a special place and as far as orders of operations go, the microcode is read before any firmware would be read.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 22:30:25 JST 翠星石

     in reply to

     • roko's basilisk
     @vii @p Yeah, there's a special SRAM bank for the software, but that isn't really any different to a RAM bank on a Wi-Fi card for the software.
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     翠星石 (suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 02-Nov-2025 22:36:31 JST 翠星石

     in reply to
     @p rms considers proprietary software that comes with hardware, that updates are never offered for, that a proprietary license is not demanded acceptance for, is equivalent to proprietary circuits - with the only question being whether there is a malicious circuit.
     
     If something cannot be modified, it is hardware.
     
     microcode hardware cannot be modified - but a special kind of proprietary software can be loaded onto the CPU that inserts hooks to execute extra instructions (not really that different to loading a proprietary elf onto the CPU really).
     
     As that software is proprietary and is quite clearly contains malware; "3. No reverse engineering, decompilation, or disassembly of this software is permitted." and how there is a malicious circuit to stop you from changing it makes microcode updates unacceptable.
     
     The only way to resolve the issue is not to use the malicious circuit by not loading proprietary microcode.