Ludovic Courtès
@dthompson @daviwil I’ve come to think we should consider the option of providing non-free firmware for users who want it, similar to what Debian did.
It’s not ideal, and even heart-breaking to me, but probably a better tradeoff at this point.
Still surprised about the OP who said they “discovered” that WiFi wasn’t working:
https://codeberg.org/guix/guix/src/commit/3f1e7cc449ba443ea0c874be3c77b0fa32cbe660/gnu/installer/newt/welcome.scm#L139-L155
hako（重生版）
Successfully finished with guided installation using WiFi connection!
Here it is: file, signature, checksum (or 3015a9dd1f18e73d3a629ea6b8165be14bbf34c6d39c72b26f4c6a545c7fee2b).
@futurile@mastodon.social @civodul@toot.aquilenet.fr @daviwil@fosstodon.org @ekaitz_zarraga@mastodon.social @dthompson@toot.cat @Jlicht@toot.community @efraim@tooot.im
futurile
@civodul @hako @daviwil @ekaitz_zarraga @dthompson
At Guix Days there was a good conversation about informing users about the situation (e.g. you have hardware that requires firmware), and giving them some direction on how to resolve it.
We actually agreed some actions with @Jlicht and @efraim
We should probably come back to it.
Firmware is different for functionality and security reasons. I personally think Debian struck the right balance.
hako（重生版）
@futurile@mastodon.social @civodul@toot.aquilenet.fr The Nonguix side discussion is at https://gitlab.com/nonguix/nonguix/-/issues/376, I'm trying to group some other existing discussions into one proposal lately. I hope to have a good result.
Right now I'm producing an installer that includes Nonguix kernel + firmware and installs Nonguix kernel + firmware. Will post it here once tested.
@daviwil@fosstodon.org @ekaitz_zarraga@mastodon.social @dthompson@toot.cat @Jlicht@toot.community @efraim@tooot.im
Ludovic Courtès
@hako You mean Nonguix is working on separating the firmware bits from the other packages? That would be a step in the right direction, IMO.
hako（重生版）
@civodul@toot.aquilenet.fr I think this is better solved on Nonguix side. There's discussion on separating the proprietary bits.
Having Nonguix to do the work actually demonstrates the extensibility of Guix, and in this discussion it shows there's something to do to extend the installer.
@ekaitz_zarraga@mastodon.social @daviwil@fosstodon.org @dthompson@toot.cat
Ludovic Courtès
@ekaitz_zarraga “Potential” users? Probably a majority:
https://guix.gnu.org/en/blog/2025/guix-user-and-contributor-survey-2024-the-results-part-2/
And really, I think it’s best to have the option to get just that non-free firmware than to indirectly open the gates to a nonguix/NixOS-style solution where you get not only proprietary firmware but also an entire set of proprietary packages.
Ekaitz Zarraga 👹
@civodul @dthompson @daviwil Shouldn't we just tell the users that there are some drivers needed that we don't directly provide be enough?
Is it possible to know that from inside guix easily?
If we listed: your current device won't have this and that available because that requires proprietary software, if you really need that please take a look to other providers like nonguix. I believe it should be enough.
Our ethics are important, many of our users like Guix because of them.
Ekaitz Zarraga 👹
@civodul @dthompson @daviwil I mean, I don't like making the users we already have less comfortable in order to comfort some potential users that didn't even bother to read the actual front page of the project that it says we are a 100% free software distribution.
Ludovic Courtès
This whole discussion is interesting to me because I have a ~20y track record of being in the “uncompromising camp” (and I still don’t compromise *for myself*, you might have seen my WiFi dongle :-)).
So that gives me that feeling of déjà vu, with a twist. :-)
Ekaitz Zarraga 👹
@civodul Yes.
You are right, but could be understood as a contrary effect: it doesn't help to raise awareness about how difficult it is to make use of your computing without proprietary blobs.
Somehow, its helping proprietary vendors subtly be accepted. Is that promoting freedom?
I agree on the practicality side, but also, in Guix I see pretty often things like "we shouldn't engage with this or that to say we do not condone what they do" but are ok with condoning non-free software?
Ludovic Courtès
@ekaitz_zarraga I like the idea of a “freedom ladder”.
If you look at the Trisquel/Debian/Ubuntu spectrum, Debian has a reasonable middleground: its compromise on non-free firmware makes it usable by anyone without heroic efforts (aka. “WiFi works”), and yet it remains a (the?) major promoter of user freedom among distros.
The same cannot be said of the other two.
Ekaitz Zarraga 👹
@civodul I don't think them being a majority actually changes anything if this is an ethical decision.
We can change our restaurant from being vegan to vegetarian if you consider that more appropriate but... "People drink milk at home anyway!"
Idk, man.
I believe the only reason this is being discussed is because there's a collective that hates GNU and wants to separate us from them in any way.
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Ekaitz Zarraga 👹
@civodul
I believe nobody would agree on suggesting a vegan restaurant to serve meat is good, neither respectful. We are accepting it here, just "because the users". What about those that come here because this is the only vegan place they have available?
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