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1. Embed this notice
   b-rain (b_rain@troet.cafe)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 03:32:35 JST b-rain

   "each individual kid is now hooked into a Nonsense Machine" #school #AI #KI #meme #misinformation #desinformation

   • Rich Felker repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷 (larsmb@mastodon.online)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 03:32:33 JST Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷

     in reply to

     @b_rain I've had to explain that LLMs are nothing at all like search engines to friends who are highly educated and, overall, likely smarter and more capable of complex thought than myself.

     They're just not computer science educated, and understand computers as good at numbers and large database retrievals.

     Which is the exact opposite of #LLMs.

     Society isn't ready for them at all.

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 03:33:09 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷

     @larsmb @b_rain They're not smarter and more capable of complex thought than you if they get this wrong.

     They've failed to pass a very very low bar for intelligence.

   • Embed this notice
     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 03:34:19 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷

     @larsmb @b_rain Namely, failure to apply a critical lens to narratives provided by a party who stands to profit from having them believe what they're told to believe about something they lack sufficient background to understand.

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 03:37:26 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷

     @larsmb @b_rain And indeed lots of supposedly "highly educated" people in lots of specialized fields have this very basic lack of intelligence.

     For example there are tons of doctors who take claims by drug companies at face value rather than applying a critical lens, looking for genuinely independent studies, or applying their own understanding (that they theoretically needed to graduate, but probably never had) of the relevant mechanisms of action.

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 04:42:48 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷

     @larsmb @b_rain OK I'll try to refrain from doing that.

     What I'm trying to say is that the answer to "can't understand everything" is not "trust whoever has a loud marketing department" but "assume hype and extraordinary claims false by default especially when they're coming from corporate sources in the same industry that's making the hyped products" and "seek out actual domain expertise as the source of trustworthy information on topics you don't understand".

     I deem these principles very basic to critical thinking/intelligence.

   • Embed this notice
     Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷 (larsmb@mastodon.online)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 04:42:49 JST Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker

     @dalias @b_rain No. This is insulting. I don't take kindly to insults to my friends, so kindly: don't.

     They're not experts in tech. They're being willfully misled about the capabilities and functions.

     They all understood it when explained, but the systems are not always explained, because then they couldn't be sold.

     The term for "one can't spend time to understand everything and must rely on and trust others at some point" is not "unintelligent" but "human".

   • Embed this notice
     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 04:48:15 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • load bearing hole
     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷

     @killeveryhetero @larsmb @b_rain I don't think that reply was helpful.

   • Embed this notice
     load bearing hole (killeveryhetero@jorts.horse)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 04:48:16 JST load bearing hole

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker
     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷

     @larsmb @dalias @b_rain nah dog your friends are dumb as shit sorry

     silverwizard likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 08:31:55 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
     • FoolishOwl

     @foolishowl @larsmb @b_rain You don't have to "dismiss" someone to acknowledge that they have an exploitable cognitive vulnerability. If you care about them or deem them valuable to a movement or whatever, you can try to help them see that or if they can't, at least try to get them to channel the bs in a way that's somewhat productive...

   • Embed this notice
     FoolishOwl (foolishowl@social.coop)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 08:31:56 JST FoolishOwl

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker
     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷

     @dalias @larsmb @b_rain A few days ago, I started a thread complaining about leftists advocating the use of LLMs. A few people said something along the lines of them not really being leftists if they did.

     After that, I saw posts about "vibe coding" from two socialists I've known for decades, both experienced software developers. One had just returned from a trip to Palestine, where he'd been a volunteer on the ground.

     I loathe LLMs, but I can't just dismiss these people as fools. They're not.

   • Embed this notice
     feld (feld@friedcheese.us)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 10:29:00 JST feld

     in reply to
     @b_rain when did school stop teaching kids how to cite primary sources and write a bibliography ??
   • Embed this notice
     LisPi (lispi314@udongein.xyz)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 11:32:52 JST LisPi

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker
     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
     • FoolishOwl
     @dalias @b_rain @larsmb @foolishowl Social engineering (including propaganda and manipulation) wouldn't be an active field of research & effort if it didn't work.
     
     Many people prefer to avert their attention rather than understand to mitigate what risk they can (unfortunately, some things work /even/ if one knows how they work and that they're being used).
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 20:51:32 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
     • Jay Stephens

     @jaystephens @larsmb @b_rain That is absolutely not the case if you've actually tried using it rather than reading/watching propaganda. The progress in the past 2 decades has utterly stagnated. Computers are slower, clunkier, harder to use, mess up more often in more unpredictable ways, etc.

   • Embed this notice
     Jay Stephens (jaystephens@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 20:51:33 JST Jay Stephens

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker
     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷

     @dalias @larsmb @b_rain
     To outsiders, what tech has achieved in the last 3 decades is absolutely indistinguishable from magic.
     If you don't have domain knowledge and it _seems_ like the same folks who caused computers, then the Internet, then smartphones to upend society are now saying "a new, artificial intelligence is here that can do all the things, embrace it or be left behind", it's very hard to separate hype from opportunity and threat.

   • Embed this notice
     Claudipicpl (ridscherli@troet.cafe)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 20:54:06 JST Claudipicpl

     in reply to

     @dalias @larsmb @b_rain This!
     A key competence is to know which tool to use for which task.
     You don't know the purpose of a tool and use it anyway? You are surely not smart.
     You know that it is the wrong tool but don't care for its limits? You are surely not smart.
     This has nothing to do with some digital understanding. Why would one use a torx screw driver for pozidriv screws? Why would one want to use an LLM as retrieval machine? A smart person knows what their tools are able to do.

   • Embed this notice
     Claudipicpl (ridscherli@troet.cafe)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 20:54:27 JST Claudipicpl

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker
     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷

     @larsmb @dalias @b_rain
     It's always your own decision when you stop to verifying your source of information. Who told them that the new tool is an answering machine instead of a wording machine? Why did they stop asking another expert?
     There is surely a YouTube video explaining how to fix the plumbing installation with tape. Still it's my responsibility if I do this at home.
     No matter which education: those who believe rather in PR texts than experts, are missing some kind of complex thinking.

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
   • Embed this notice
     Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷 (larsmb@mastodon.online)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 20:54:28 JST Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker
     • Claudipicpl

     @ridscherli @dalias @b_rain Nobody knows that immediately when confronted with a completely new tool, especially one that behaves very differently to all other tools that looked the same before, and when they've been lied to by almost everyone (not just for-profit corporations) about the capabilities.
     I think it is very important that we understand why LLMs are so often misunderstood so we can fix it — not be condescending to our friends is probably helpful in that regard.

     Rich Felker repeated this.
   • Embed this notice
     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 20:57:30 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
     • Claudipicpl

     @ridscherli @larsmb @b_rain The documentation & neighbor's opinion are likely both lies.

     The papers by certain Black women experts aren't, and I think we know why folks aren't reading those...

     (This is not necessarily an individual indictment, although it is when folks still refuse after becoming aware. It's an indictment of the society that intentionally buries such expertise.)

   • Embed this notice
     Claudipicpl (ridscherli@troet.cafe)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 20:57:31 JST Claudipicpl

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker
     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷

     @larsmb @dalias @b_rain Of course there are many questions:
     Why do we accept a society in which advertisement is regarded a kind of information?
     Why is it possible to get a school or other grade by only repeating some facts and forgetting them afterwards?
     Why do we listen to the loud and not to the calm?
     But at the end of the day it's always my decision: do I ask the electrician for recommendations on wall paint? Do I use a new software tool based on documentation or on the neighbour's opinion?

   • Embed this notice
     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 21:01:54 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
     • Serge

     @xerge @larsmb @b_rain "Also, most experts like scientists, engineers and physicians aren’t used to be actively misled."

     LMAO. A good 75% or more (probably 90% now) of scientific publication is fraud (fabricated data, false citations, false authorship, plagiarism, etc.). Someone in the field who isn't paying attention enough to see that is lacking a basic skill they need to do their job.

     I'm not saying you're wrong, just that ignorance of it doesn't absolve them.

     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Serge (xerge@mastodon.nl)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 21:01:56 JST Serge

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker
     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷

     @larsmb @dalias @b_rain Agree.

     Also, most experts like scientists, engineers and physicians aren’t used to be actively misled. Those fields are built on trusting everyone else’s expertise and assuming good intentions. It wouldn’t work otherwise. LLMs are a very different beast.

     That’s also why there seems to be an uptick in completely fraudulent scientific publications. It’s relatively easy to do because the reviewers don’t immediately assume fraud.

   • Embed this notice
     Jay Stephens (jaystephens@mastodon.social)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 21:12:21 JST Jay Stephens

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker
     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷

     @dalias @larsmb @b_rain
     Totally agree bloatware and enshitification have outpaced Moore's law, but the smartphone is less than 2 decades old, and unlike Internet old hands, late adopters don't have much memory of a better time. In the mid 2010s in my job I was still regularly upskilling mums returning to work who were switching to a computer from a pen and a paper book. Those people are even now only mid 50s to mid 60s.

   • Embed this notice
     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 21:12:21 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
     • Jay Stephens

     @jaystephens @larsmb @b_rain I don't see how someone without context sees this "magical technological progress" and not a mess of attacks on their attention by stuff that never works as expected. 🤷

   • Embed this notice
     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 21:51:21 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
     • Serge

     @xerge @larsmb @b_rain I'm counting "cited something not relevant as a favor", "cited something claiming it supports a claim it doesn't", "included a non-author on authors list for prestige", "included LLM vomit undisclosed", etc. as academic fraud. Because these things are. Falsification of data may only account for 10%, but I suspect it's much higher now. Especially combined with LLM usage.

   • Embed this notice
     Serge (xerge@mastodon.nl)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 21:51:23 JST Serge

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker
     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷

     @dalias @larsmb @b_rain

     As someone that has worked as a research scientist in chemistry for the last 30 years I can guarantee that the amount of fraudulent publications is a lot lower than that. Probably significantly below 10% in the hard sciences. Hard numbers are difficult to find.

     It happens, but when it happens it is usually falsified data, that can only be caught by replication. Carelessness and mistakes obviously also happen.

   • Embed this notice
     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 22:23:35 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
     • Jay Stephens
     • abhijith

     @abhijith @jaystephens @larsmb @b_rain Somehow I'm completely missing where this "magic" is. The non-insider folks I encounter in normal life are upset that their computers keep getting slower, that every few months an update moves things around and they can't find anything, that their old emails or photos seem to have disappeared randomly, that they're missing calls because WhatsApp can't update because their phone storage is full and each version ships with a forced-upgrade timebomb, etc. etc. etc. None of this feels like "magic" to them. It feels like shit.

   • Embed this notice
     abhijith (abhijith@cowcornerfeeds.co.in)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Jun-2025 22:23:36 JST abhijith

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker
     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
     • Jay Stephens
     There is difference in how we see tech from another person. My dev cousin is jealous of me because my work laptop is a Macbook Pro which I am not a fan of. I am jealous of her because she works on a Thinkpad. I am sure many of us will understand when I say my fingers miss that keyboard. That same me is not much into mechanical keyboards. I use Arch, a bleeding edge distro on my Thinkcenter but everything on it is retro. My display server is X11, terminal is XTerm and shell is Bash. Thinkcenter itself is old and low spec but it feels faster than the Macbook because the setup is minimal here while MacOS is bloated. So for me it is as if the tech is stuck at 2012 when the Thinkcenter was built. This is however not true for someone who appreciates Macbook and MacOS. They see magic.
     
     CC: @jaystephens@mastodon.social @larsmb@mastodon.online @b_rain@troet.cafe
     
   • Embed this notice
     feld (feld@friedcheese.us)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Jun-2025 00:30:34 JST feld

     in reply to

     • Mad A. Argon :qurio:
     @madargon @b_rain some of them do cite their sources in their responses which is nice
   • Embed this notice
     Mad A. Argon :qurio: (madargon@is-a.cat)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Jun-2025 00:30:35 JST Mad A. Argon :qurio:

     in reply to

     • feld

     @feld @b_rain I remember in my schools they push citing sources strongly on us. Now I wonder if this caused my current resistance to using LLMs because I simply can't tolerate unverified answers.

   • Embed this notice
     Rich Felker (dalias@hachyderm.io)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Jun-2025 05:56:16 JST Rich Felker

     in reply to

     • Mer-fOKxTOwl
     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
     • Jay Stephens

     @glowl @jaystephens @larsmb @b_rain I've written elsewhere in the thread about how it's a vulnerabilty. What I take exception to is the idea that it's "late adopters" who are especially vulnerable to being bedazzled by the scam. I think it's plausible that they're *more* resilient on average, by virtue of not having been wowed by the previous "big thing" either.

     My impression is that it's people with a proclivity for admiring authority and for wanting to be in in-groups who are most vulnerable to techno-futurist scams like "AI". They don't understand or care about the actual technology because their interest isn't in it, but in projecting an image of being someone who's in "club tech".

   • Embed this notice
     Mer-fOKxTOwl (glowl@chaos.social)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Jun-2025 05:56:17 JST Mer-fOKxTOwl

     in reply to

     • Rich Felker
     • Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
     • Jay Stephens

     @dalias @jaystephens @larsmb @b_rain feels a bit "funny" to me that you seem to struggle so much with understanding how people fall for the corporate LLM sharade.

     reading this thread looks like its the same for you as its its for them who struggle to grasp what LLM's actually do and what their problems are, just on another level.

     like you wrote, they not getting that is their "vulnerability" and you not being able to get them is yours.