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   👺防空識別區👹 (adiz@mtl.jinxian.casa)'s status on Friday, 04-Apr-2025 17:26:42 JST 👺防空識別區👹

   • iced depresso
   • Miscbrains:beastie::segasaturn:
   • pistolero
   • m0xEE

   AI, and data-scraping for it, should demonstrate, in my opinion, the importance of a private, more intimate and trust-based internet---similar to the Fediverse.

   Have user or site content hidden and inaccessible behind a login screen, and have communications between instances and users be based on mutual trust and collective, voluntary, communal policing, e.g.: if a user is found to be some AI, we can address it; if an instance is some AI data-mining instance, we can address it. Or, develop white-list-based federation networks.

   This is a solution that is more aligned with the spirit and ethos of the internet, more true to healthy and organic human interaction, and a solution with technology and implementations which already exist, not necessitating any new tactics nor tools nor complexities. @p @icedquinn @m0xEE @miscbrains

   RE: https://fsebugoutzone.org/objects/5ab5d5e6-e7da-4355-9233-e9ea17ea8b89

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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Friday, 04-Apr-2025 17:26:40 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Miscbrains:beastie::segasaturn:
     • m0xEE
     @adiz @icedquinn @m0xEE @miscbrains I don't know, I think walling it off would be a case where the cure is worse than the disease.
     
     I sure as hell don't want to participate in collective decision-making with regards to servers or individual users; nobody likes how I run FSE, nobody's ever liked it.
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     Phantasm (phnt@fluffytail.org)'s status on Friday, 04-Apr-2025 17:35:55 JST Phantasm

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     • iced depresso
     • Miscbrains:beastie::segasaturn:
     • pistolero
     • m0xEE
     @adiz @icedquinn @p @miscbrains @m0xEE
     
     Having content hidden behind a login screen makes it hard for newcomers to join or even think of joining your community, because they have no idea what the community is like. Not to mention that I can silently break the trust everything is based on here without much work. I can operate an instance and silently log every activity that comes in and feed to an AI with 15 lines of Elixir. With AP you need to publicly show your outbox anyway I think and a lot of the smarter scrapers use that.
     
     Not to mention that white-list federation goes exactly against the goals of decentralized networking. You are essentially proposing a version of a federated private tracker.
     pistolero likes this.
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     m0xEE (m0xee@nosh0b10.m0xee.net)'s status on Friday, 04-Apr-2025 18:40:28 JST m0xEE

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Miscbrains:beastie::segasaturn:
     • Phantasm
     • pistolero
     @icedquinn@blob.cat @p@fsebugoutzone.org @miscbrains@misc.brainsoap.net @adiz@mtl.jinxian.casa @phnt@fluffytail.org
     Yep, whitelisting has been offered many times, but it makes people reluctant to join, not to mention some have explicit idiosyncrasy to such things.
     In theory it could be not registration, but an assignment of a non-persistent ID — this could be a base of some sort of loose hierarchy. We already have that — we have IP-addresses, you can hide that behind a proxy chain to remain mostly anonymous: even if you are a bad actor, I can't tell who you are on my end, but I can contact the one who relays your shit to me and ask them to make it stop, they send the message down the line, lest they disagree with you being a bad actor — in which case I can still block the relay entirely.
     If we had some sort of mesh networks — that would be the actual case, mostly anonymous, but on universal agreement — and that would be the case with bad actors, we could eventually physically isolate them. But, like I said, as long as we rely on corporate and state-built networks, we have to play their games 🤷
     
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     silverpill (silverpill@mitra.social)'s status on Friday, 04-Apr-2025 20:09:44 JST silverpill

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Miscbrains:beastie::segasaturn:
     • pistolero
     • m0xEE

     @adiz @p @icedquinn @m0xEE @miscbrains Whitelist or login wall seems a bit drastic to me, but default post visibility should probably be followers only.

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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Friday, 04-Apr-2025 20:21:22 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Miscbrains:beastie::segasaturn:
     • silverpill
     • m0xEE
     @silverpill @adiz @icedquinn @m0xEE @miscbrains
     
     > Whitelist or login wall seems a bit drastic to me,
     
     Yeah, you look at Soapbox instances versus Pleroma; Soapbox doesn't *exactly* login-wall you, but if you don't know how to get to the timeline, it really doesn't like to show it to you. This has an effect on who actually does sign up.
     
     > default post visibility should probably be followers only.
     
     Eh, it gets treated as a privacy/security measure. It's not, it doesn't even sort of work that way on fedi in $current_year, it breaks threads, it incentivizes people to make socks to follow people (someone made something like six alts on FSE just to follow people that had blocked the main account). Even DM threads get misunderstood a lot, like I get tagged into them by someone saying "Have you seen this @p?" or something like that and I have to explain "I still haven't seen it: I can only see posts that I was tagged in, not the rest of the thread. What did he say?"
     
     I don't see a real reason for post scopes beyond "public", "unlisted", and "e2ee".
      and Phantasm like this.
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     silverpill (silverpill@mitra.social)'s status on Friday, 04-Apr-2025 22:42:31 JST silverpill

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Miscbrains:beastie::segasaturn:
     • pistolero
     • m0xEE

     @p @icedquinn @miscbrains @adiz @m0xEE In our part of Fediverse, followers-only works better because audience is preserved in replies. I think most of the negative side effects seen in Mastodon and Pleroma communities are due to alternating audiences (my followers, then your followers, then my followers again...).

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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Saturday, 05-Apr-2025 08:08:08 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • pomstan
     • Miscbrains:beastie::segasaturn:
     • m0xEE
     @pomstan @adiz @icedquinn @m0xEE @miscbrains
     
     > us normal people
     
     :alexjonesconfuse:
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     pomstan (pomstan@xn--p1abe3d.xn--80asehdb)'s status on Saturday, 05-Apr-2025 08:08:09 JST pomstan

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Miscbrains:beastie::segasaturn:
     • pistolero
     • m0xEE

     @adiz @icedquinn @p @miscbrains @m0xEE use whitelist federation and leave us normal people alone

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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Saturday, 05-Apr-2025 08:19:06 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Miscbrains:beastie::segasaturn:
     • silverpill
     • m0xEE
     @silverpill @icedquinn @miscbrains @adiz @m0xEE
     
     > followers-only works better because audience is preserved in replies.
     
     I mean, it avoids that specific bug, right?
     
     > (my followers, then your followers, then my followers again...).
     
     Ah, okay. Like you are just adding the followers addresses for the people you're replying to, right? That would actually not be hard, I think; I wonder why it wasn't always like that. I guess it can lend itself to spam if you don't check the parent post, and that's potentially lengthy process.
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     m0xEE (m0xee@nosh0b10.m0xee.net)'s status on Saturday, 05-Apr-2025 08:21:10 JST m0xEE

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Miscbrains:beastie::segasaturn:
     • silverpill
     • pistolero
     @p@fsebugoutzone.org @icedquinn@blob.cat @miscbrains@misc.brainsoap.net @adiz@mtl.jinxian.casa @silverpill@mitra.social
     AF⚡DF
     (alternating followers/direct followers)
     
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     silverpill (silverpill@mitra.social)'s status on Sunday, 06-Apr-2025 02:51:52 JST silverpill

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Miscbrains:beastie::segasaturn:
     • pistolero
     • m0xEE

     @p @icedquinn @miscbrains @adiz @m0xEE Yes, you just copy followers collection from the parent post to your reply. The author of top level post is responsible for delivering activities, because you probably don't know who his followers are.

     This is described in https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fep/src/branch/main/fep/171b/fep-171b.md

     When audience is preserved throughout the conversation, it feels cozy, and no one gets FOMO from looking at broken threads.

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     realcaseyrollins ✝️ repeated this.
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 06-Apr-2025 11:44:23 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • pomstan
     • Miscbrains:beastie::segasaturn:
     • m0xEE
     @pomstan @adiz @icedquinn @m0xEE @miscbrains
     
     > the meme guy with the spinning 1997 gif avatar and the punycode domain on the server he runs in this fedi verse has insisted that he is normal at the guy with the venom snake avatar
     > the guy with the venom snake avatar responds by posting the face of alex jones
     > the meme guy understands all of the things that are happening here
     
     Please tell me more about this "normal" that you think you are participating in.
     
     > more adequate than you, amerimutt
     
     "Adequate" is an absolute term; one cannot be "more adequate".
     egg_and_homer.png
     ✙ dcc :pedomustdie: :phear_slackware: likes this.
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     pomstan (pomstan@xn--p1abe3d.xn--80asehdb)'s status on Sunday, 06-Apr-2025 11:44:24 JST pomstan

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Miscbrains:beastie::segasaturn:
     • pistolero
     • m0xEE

     @p @icedquinn @miscbrains @adiz @m0xEE more adequate than you, amerimutt

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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 06-Apr-2025 12:13:20 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Miscbrains:beastie::segasaturn:
     • silverpill
     • m0xEE
     @silverpill @icedquinn @miscbrains @adiz @m0xEE
     
     > Yes, you just copy followers collection from the parent post to your reply.
     
     I mean, you've got to enforce that this person has the authority to do that, at minimum.
     
     > The author of top level post is responsible for delivering activities,
     
     This seems like it could be abused if threads get too long.
     
     > https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fep/src/branch/main/fep/171b/fep-171b.md
     
     This is reasonable. Mitra implements this already?
     
     > no one gets FOMO from looking at broken threads.
     
     Ha, I don't think it's FOMO so much as people tending not to quote as compulsively as I do, so:
     
     :alexjonesbrain: You know what we need? An entire truck full of shellfish.
     :dalecooper: [scope changes to followers-only] Why?
     :alexjonesbrain: [post unavailable]
     :dalecooper: My god, that's brilliant!
     
     It's annoying for the same reason as a person talking loudly on a cell phone is annoying: you don't even care about the conversation, it's just irritating to only hear half.
     
     At any rate, I think email and IRC solve the private conversation just fine already. I used Masto when I first arrived on fedi, I've used Soapbox, and just seeing the top-level posts is boring. They're like a million times more likely to be performative. But scrolling down, I see some heated discussion of some nerd shit, I click and there's some really interesting discussion going on. I don't like turning that stuff opaque because I don't have interest in the stuff that's left over once the reply-chains become opaque.
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     pomstan (pomstan@xn--p1abe3d.xn--80asehdb)'s status on Sunday, 06-Apr-2025 12:24:12 JST pomstan

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Miscbrains:beastie::segasaturn:
     • pistolero
     • m0xEE

     @p @icedquinn @miscbrains @adiz @m0xEE

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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 06-Apr-2025 12:25:31 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • pomstan
     • Miscbrains:beastie::segasaturn:
     • m0xEE
     @pomstan @adiz @icedquinn @m0xEE @miscbrains
     pause.jpg
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     m0xEE (m0xee@nosh0b10.m0xee.net)'s status on Sunday, 06-Apr-2025 16:41:52 JST m0xEE

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • pomstan
     • Miscbrains:beastie::segasaturn:
     • pistolero
     @p@fsebugoutzone.org @icedquinn@blob.cat @miscbrains@misc.brainsoap.net @adiz@mtl.jinxian.casa @pomstan@xn--p1abe3d.xn--80asehdb
     guy with the spinning 1997 gif avatar and the punycode domain
     I can never become that cool 🤭
     
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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 06-Apr-2025 16:45:18 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • pomstan
     • Miscbrains:beastie::segasaturn:
     • m0xEE
     @m0xEE @icedquinn @miscbrains @adiz @pomstan This gif from the 90s was what made me realize that I could not engage in the normie internet.
     dancingbabygif.gif
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     silverpill (silverpill@mitra.social)'s status on Sunday, 06-Apr-2025 20:47:17 JST silverpill

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Miscbrains:beastie::segasaturn:
     • pistolero
     • m0xEE

     @p @icedquinn @miscbrains @adiz @m0xEE

     >This is reasonable. Mitra implements this already?

     Yes, for private conversations. FEP-171b can be used for Public too, that has the benefit of fully synced conversations, but the number of deliveries would also increase and Mitra is not ready yet.

     >This seems like it could be abused if threads get too long.

     How it can be abused?

     Conversation owner needs to distribute all replies, but I don't expect this to be a deal breaker. Federated forums (Lemmy etc) work like that too, and they scale to hundreds of thousands of users.

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     pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Sunday, 06-Apr-2025 23:59:38 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • Miscbrains:beastie::segasaturn:
     • silverpill
     • m0xEE
     @silverpill @icedquinn @miscbrains @adiz @m0xEE
     
     > but the number of deliveries would also increase
     
     Yep, that was my concern.
     
     > How it can be abused?
     
     Imagine a 1500-post thread with several dozen participants from different servers; each new post is a new delivery. Imagine someone makes a new instance, spins up a million fake users that all reply to the last post in the thread.