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I don't really understand this logic here. If the ruling is that the funds could not be frozen then obviously they must be released so they can be disbursed as Congress had already approved, right?
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@SlicerDicer They already passed the laws approving the spending though. What additional clarity? This means any future Congress can stop the spending that a previous Congress already approved.
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@feld Maybe they want congress to provide more clarity?
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@feld @SlicerDicer our system is so fucking stupid they can probably just concede that the spending can be temporarily delayed indefinitely
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@sun @SlicerDicer @feld They can also just keep "raising the debt ceiling" forever.
Why do they need our taxes, again? :blobfoxthinkgoogly:
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@tk @sun @SlicerDicer Oh, I fully agree with that. Stop taxing us and just print the goddamn money you idiots.
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@tk @SlicerDicer @feld copyright is for a limited time constitutionally but the supreme court said they could just extend it forever legislatively
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@feld @tk @SlicerDicer if they can print forever why not just print and pay off the debt. there must be some reason if "money is just fake" what is it???
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@sun @tk @SlicerDicer Kashkari already went on the record and said there are infinite dollars they can produce
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@Leyonhjelm @sun @SlicerDicer The federal government never defaults. Never has, never will. Even if it takes years they always pay their debtors.
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@sun
Without knowing what is specifically being demanded it’s impossible to know what is rejecting an expense and what is just defaulting on a bill. Knowing the government, the latter is possible even if the goods or services were bullshit
@feld @SlicerDicer
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@feld @SlicerDicer @Leyonhjelm
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@tk @sun @feld That’s not exactly how that works. Raising the debt ceiling just means we can issue more bonds. Those bonds are at what rate the market sets. Currently adding more is quite expensive. So without taxes that sum would be unmanageable to finance.
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@SlicerDicer @feld @sun But they can just print more money, like others in the thread said. :blobfoxgoogly:
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@sun @feld @tk You have to have willing buyers for the debt based on ability to pay back. The Supreme Court has already ruled that debts must be paid. So how do you handle this. You can’t just issue debt on debt perpetually. No entity has ever survived that kind of thing.
So yes they can print money, at the cost of tax. That’s really what it means. Are they being prudent with the printed money. Then as well how much can they print before the bond market blows up. Nobody ever considers that. What happens if there’s a buyers strike or not enough buyers.
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@SlicerDicer @feld @sun I mean, the US government is obviously not long for this world anyway, so they can just ignore the long-term consequences. :blobfoxgooglytrash:
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@SlicerDicer @feld @Leyonhjelm that makes more sense lol
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@sun @feld @Leyonhjelm Yes Kashkari said this. Under the difficult conditions of 2008 how much was actually paid by FDIC.
It was only 380 billion in bad bank deposits. To cover all that with FDIC and get preferred stock to sell back at recovery. Like come on can’t tell me that math doesn’t check. Regardless the payment is not going to be that huge.
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@feld @SlicerDicer @Leyonhjelm @sun not always, liberty bonds issued to be redeemed in gold, but the US didn't have enough gold to pay, so they changed it after the fact to be only payable in dollars for domestically held debt, then devalued the dollar in gold by 40%.
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@SlicerDicer @sun @tk And nobody said the dollars they pay you back with have to actually be worth anything, lol. As long as it's paid back!!! Hyperinflation is only a technicality in that case 🙃
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@Leyonhjelm @lain @SlicerDicer @feld they shut down 100% of them though
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@lain
It also often depends on how you define the default. Defaulting on THE debt and defaulting on a bill they argue they don't really owe are two different things. I suspect DOGE shut down these payments on the claim that these were not properly authorized, but a Democrat-aligned judge is arguing it's a contract and valid enough to be paid before a proper judgement is made (without regard to the correctness of the authorization, which may or may not be real).
The biggest issue with the thing the judges are doing is that they're making injunctions requiring a potentially improper and almost definitely unrecoverable payout. I consider that beyond the purview of these judges' authority. SCOTUS chose not to intervene, which is not a ruling but more a "declined to intervene" situation. I hate the Judicial Branch but I hate watching armchair lawyers treat everything as if it's right because a judge said it even more. We should all be critical of all parts of the government at all times.
@SlicerDicer @feld @sun
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@feld @sun @tk That infinite amount of money is not infinite. It’s just considered to be infinite in the sense it would never not be enough for the things they do. Not that it’s unlimited.
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@lain @SlicerDicer @Leyonhjelm @sun Hey it worked for Vader
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@Leyonhjelm @SlicerDicer @feld @sun yes, i haven't seen a good explanation of what this was actually about, because if it's simply a case of 'the government ordered it, it was delivered, but now they are not paying', it wouldn't seem like you'd need the supreme court to weigh in on it.
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@sun @feld @Leyonhjelm Yeah I mean it seems excessive but in reality the costs covered were not that high. The other costs were doing loans to companies from banks so credit didn’t stall. The liquidity crunch means there’s not enough money in the system. So that was loaned. The loans created more loans that created more loans. As a society of debt we really have a hard time reconciling how debt works. It’s all debt there’s no unlimited money, there’s no printer it’s all debt. Basically the government raising the debt ceiling is using BNPL. So obviously taxes are critically important to cover that.
When we think of money printer though, the dollars created by the process is exactly how our system has worked for all my life. Not much is going to change this the reality is we need to be more prudent about how we do it.
I could go into a long winded explanation of how taxes matter and don’t matter and what the taxes should be ideally vs what they are. Nobody quite likes me going on about taxes as it challenges conventional wisdom. That said we are not taxed enough as a society. The tax that is hated is unequal tax. That’s what is really the core problem.
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@SlicerDicer @feld @Leyonhjelm goldman sachs should have been liquidated legislatively after they were restored
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@feld @SlicerDicer @sun Who remembers the various Zimbabwean dollars? :blobfoxgoogly:
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@lain @SlicerDicer @feld @Leyonhjelm I don't think they are as "dumb" as everyone thinks, the stuff they are doing is being done very carefully legally even if they're huge changes
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@feld @SlicerDicer @Leyonhjelm @sun honestly defaulting on bonds is the best thing to do, everyone who bought one bought it willingly and reasonably has to deal with risk of default (unlike people who paid into social security, for example)
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@lain
That is the one scenario I can see where the payment might be warranted even if the order was for stupid bullshit. If it's something not delivered, or something intangible and the terms were not met, though, that could warrant reduced or nonpayment.
@SlicerDicer @feld @sun
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@sun @SlicerDicer @feld @Leyonhjelm vance is weird, kamala is brat and musk and trump are stupid
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@SlicerDicer @sun @Leyonhjelm We don't need to tax more we need to collect more. The IRS already gave a report to Congress showing that we are not collecting 1 trillion in taxes due to tax cheats and if we actually collected on that we would have a surplus of about $250 billion per year
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@feld
I do not think the US deserves that trillion. Cut the taxes instead and cut the IRS budget.
@SlicerDicer @sun
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@Leyonhjelm @SlicerDicer @sun Cut the IRS budget? Which is ridiculously low already after the GOP kneecapped it in the late 90s? The same IRS that gets a 6:1 return on investment?
Defunding the IRS is not a great strategy
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@feld @SlicerDicer @Leyonhjelm didn't it get kneecapped because they were so aggressive people were committing suicide and shit
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@feld @Leyonhjelm @SlicerDicer I read about this in readers digest years ago
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@Leyonhjelm @SlicerDicer @feld @sun And get rid of all of those expensive military bases across the world. :blobfoxannoyed:
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@tk
Damn right.
@SlicerDicer @feld @sun
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@Leyonhjelm @SlicerDicer @sun I understand you hate the government but at least take some time to fully understand the scope of the problem instead of just spewing anti-intellectual garbage and pretending it's a moral ideology
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@feld
I disagree and fuck you.
@SlicerDicer @sun
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@feld
I have seen where intellectuals get us. No. Fuck intellectuals. I could not be less interested in giving them time to engage in sophistry about what is fundamentally already bullshit.
@SlicerDicer @sun
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@Leyonhjelm @SlicerDicer @sun these posts are just making everyone dumber and I know you know this
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@Leyonhjelm @feld @SlicerDicer
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@feld
Yes, your posts are certainly having that effect.
@SlicerDicer @sun
feld
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