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   katka :: Maybe (Katka ?☕☕☕) (katka@ak.kawen.space)'s status on Thursday, 06-Feb-2025 23:45:31 JST katka :: Maybe (Katka ?☕☕☕)
   tbh my problem is that C is too high level and rust isn't high level enough
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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Thursday, 06-Feb-2025 23:45:18 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

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     • Lili (T'lapka?)
     @pasty @katka Well low-level/high-level is an antique notion but it's supposed to be that low-level is assembly with at most some macros but it's effectively like fancy hex editing.
     And then high-level is when you have a compiler in the middle that's free to mangle your program.
     (And C is quite awful at approaching low-level, see lack of native bitfields for example)
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     Lili (T'lapka?) (pasty@raru.re)'s status on Thursday, 06-Feb-2025 23:45:20 JST Lili (T'lapka?)

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     @katka undefined behavior is high level now?

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     katka :: Maybe (Katka ?☕☕☕) (katka@ak.kawen.space)'s status on Thursday, 06-Feb-2025 23:45:22 JST katka :: Maybe (Katka ?☕☕☕)

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     • Lili (T'lapka?)
     @pasty the way the compiler will shoot you in the foot with UB and non-obvious optimizations
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     Lili (T'lapka?) (pasty@raru.re)'s status on Thursday, 06-Feb-2025 23:45:28 JST Lili (T'lapka?)

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     @katka what makes C high level over assembly...

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     katka :: Maybe (Katka ?☕☕☕) (katka@ak.kawen.space)'s status on Thursday, 06-Feb-2025 23:45:29 JST katka :: Maybe (Katka ?☕☕☕)

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     • Lili (T'lapka?)
     @pasty well i'm writing asm right now and for work i write haskell so what i mean is
     
     you can be more extreme
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     Lili (T'lapka?) (pasty@raru.re)'s status on Thursday, 06-Feb-2025 23:45:30 JST Lili (T'lapka?)

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     @katka how does that even work

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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Thursday, 06-Feb-2025 23:59:57 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

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     • Lili (T'lapka?)

     @pasty @katka Yeah, it's not UB, it's low-level of abstraction vs. high-level of abstraction.

     So effectively high/low are like if abstraction would be a boolean.

     Meanwhile C is kind of fun as it can both be used at system (bootloader/kernel/…) levels and applications (where OS is abstracted) level.

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     Lili (T'lapka?) (pasty@raru.re)'s status on Thursday, 06-Feb-2025 23:59:59 JST Lili (T'lapka?)

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     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     @lanodan @katka I don't really see UB (which, really, is just "program shits its pants when you're not careful teehee") as a high level feature because nothing about it is high level? it's not an abstraction, it doesn't make your life easier, it isn't really even a concept?

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     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Friday, 07-Feb-2025 00:11:18 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

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     • Lili (T'lapka?)
     @pasty @katka Well effectively katka pointed fun at the situation of compilers being a lot of UB, but it's not really the definition.
     
     And even if you'd somehow get rid of UB, optimisations are still going to be non-obvious.
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     Lili (T'lapka?) (pasty@raru.re)'s status on Friday, 07-Feb-2025 00:11:19 JST Lili (T'lapka?)

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     • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     @lanodan @katka I'm not really sure how that relates to my argument sorry